Will Trump pardon himself?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Asherah, Nov 26, 2020.

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Will Trump pardon himself?

Poll closed Dec 17, 2020.
  1. Trump will pardon himself

    8 vote(s)
    47.1%
  2. Trump will resign, and Pence will pardon him

    5 vote(s)
    29.4%
  3. There will be no pardon of Trump

    4 vote(s)
    23.5%
  1. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trump pardoning himself would make himself his own judge and jury

    the only way Trump can get a pardon is to resign and have his VP pardon him
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  2. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, it would raise him above the law like it does everyone else.

    Also, as was said, he could resign in the 11th hour and have Pence do it so obviously the founders were aware of this but still made no attempts to limit it.

    If they are OK with the VP giving one at the last minute then it makes sense that they wouldn't care about the president doing it.

    In fact, there is nothing legally or morally correct about a Pardn yet the founders went to great lengths so that the president had unlimited power to do so.

    I would say that's an argument for them supporting a president pardoning himself.
     
  3. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    I know this tactic well, Asherah. It isn't particularly imaginative, relying as it does on nothing more clever than the usual 'smoke-and-mirrors'. So, here's my pithy rejoinder -- Why were the erstwhile "federal prosecutors" so timid about coming right out and naming President Donald John Trump as the "criminal" who committed an "actual crime"...?! Why the tiresome 'spy-novel' artifice of "individual one"...? Why isn't he already in some 'prison', wearing the archetypal 'orange jumpsuit', etc., etc.

    Now, about Biden.... If Hunter and his 'associates' are out there running con-games and peddling influence for 'cash-and-prizes' on the foreign affairs market, and in their correspondence make pointed reference to a 10% split of the takings for "the big guy", isn't it OBVIOUS who "big guy" is?

    Who else could Hunter use to leverage his ploy among big-wigs in Ukraine and China? Does anyone think that the rich and powerful in ANY foreign country would waste a moment of their precious time dealing with a failed, cocaine-huffing nothingness like Hunter Biden if it weren't for his DADDY?!

    The net-net of this whole silly 'badminton game' is that Donald Trump was never convicted of any crime as president, and, Joe Biden was not named, per se, in all that correspondence between Hunter and his little friends as they worked their 'pay-for-play-with-daddy' schemes.

    [​IMG]. "Now, now -- don't rush things! You'll only work yourself out of a job!" 8)
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  4. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course it is, but you haven't addressed the quality of the source, and more importantly: what crime was actually committed, and by whom? All I've heard is that there was some discussions about making investments. If the investments weren't made, what's the crime?

    That's somewhat reasonable. I'm certain that Hunter made money off the fact of his familial connection. Distasteful as that is, it's pretty common. Again: what's the crime, and who committed it? Even if Hunter committed a crime (and I have yet to hear one identified), that doesn't imply Joe committed a crime. My impression is that the outrage from Republicans has gotten ahead of the facts.
     
  5. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    It's hard for me to dislike you, or completely disagree with you, Asherah, although I doubt that you and I will ever share a foxhole in this long, miserable 'trench-warfare' that American has been mired in since about 2006. Do you ever just get tired of the whole damned thing? Me? I'm EXHAUSTED....

    And I'll fast-forward to the 'ending'.... At this point it's become difficult to get on some big 'jihad' because either Trump or Biden may have committed 'criminal' activities, as identified by political foes. Every leader cuts corners, twists the truth, takes money 'under the table', shows favoritism to his cronies, and looks the other way as his family members enrich themselves on his name. When all the air bubbles are mashed out of this thing, what most of us want most, surely, is just to have an effective, fair-and-balanced leader who is genuinely good for most citizens of the United States of America (specifically) while respecting the exact wording of the Constitution of the United States and its Amendments.

    In truth, I'd have to rate Trump as a "B", and occasionally a "B+" president. In late January, we must confront the almost certain likelihood that Joe Biden may not even be close to being that good for the country. I sincerely hope I'm wrong -- yes -- and if Hunter can go on to enjoy great wealth and power because ol' Joe is his 'Daddy', then that is just to be expected. Isn't it truly amazing how little has changed in the nature, and many behaviors of mankind since at least as far back as the Roman Empire...?

    [​IMG]. "Guess who my Daddy was...?" . :-x -- "Yeah, and I remember what happened to him, too...."
     
  6. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    If Mueller and his team believed Trump or anyone in his administration had committed a crime they had a duty to report that and present the evidence of that to the House, the Speaker of the House along with it's recommendation to the DOJ for prosecution. He could not be served with an indictment until removed from office which is what impeachment is for in such cases.

    That is what happened with Starr/Ray and Bill Clinton. Starr and his office found I think it was 12 felonies Bill Clinton committed including perjury, subornation of perjury, witness tampering and obstruction of justice. In his report to the Speaker of the House he detailed the exact crimes and the evidence to support them in clear concise language.

    The House impeached but the Democrats in the Senate voted not to remove him. So Starr's office was kept open to clear out matters, with Robert Ray taking over, and the day Clinton was leaving office Ray went and informed him he was prepared to present an indictment but would allow him to plea bargain. Of course Clinton did so.

    So without an sustainable obstruction of justice charge what else you got that was a federal crime?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  7. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're mistaken. The order from Rosenstein does not state that Mueller had such a duty to make that call on the President. Mueller stated that he was forbidden from charging the President with a crime, by Justice Dept policy. Because he couldn't indict him, Mueller said it would be unfair to the President to make a prosecutorial judgment - because he wouldn't have a day in court to defend himself. He's explicit. I can find the exact quote, if you like.

    The special counsel law has changed since the Ken Star investigation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  8. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  9. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    No I am perfectly correct, that was Mueller's JOB and the change in the law did not change that one bit other than the charges go first to the AG who then would notify the SOTH. Mueller was making inane excuses and threw it to the AG and DAG to determine if charges should be filed and they along with the OLC counsel reviewed the evidence and said no. The DOJ policy is they cannot issue the indictment and PROSECUTE a sitting President not that a sitting President can be charged. Had Melania been found shot dead and Trump standing over her with the smoking gun in hand and the investigation found he did it those charges would be taken to the SOTH and he would have been impeached and then the indictment served and prosecuted, it doesn't wait until his term ran out.

    The fact remains there was no sustainable charge of OOJ in Mueller's findings.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  10. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    I like Hannity much of the time, and, although he's characteristically as subtle as a fog horn, his observations are generally accurate -- but repeated over and over to the point where it has you digging your fingernails into the chair cushion!

    When Hannity goes overboard (which is really far too often), he's almost as bad as being some kind of "Chris Matthews of the Right". So, about half the time he's informative and interesting, but, the other half of the time, he's a wearisome, monotonous pain in the ass....

    One last time -- Trump has done nothing (NOTHING) as President of the United States to be pardoned FOR! Now... onward! :roll:
     
  11. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sounds like an article of faith. I'm glad you at least said you'll consider a self-pardon a sign he committed a crime. BTW, I'm not certain Trump will be indicted,or (if indicted) convicted. But I do think there's a better than even chance he will be pardoned before Jan 20 (self-pardon, or resign and get a Pence pardon). I'm willing to bet $5 (payable thru paypal). Are you game?

    This just in:

    NBC News: DOJ investigating potential White House 'bribery-for-pardon' scheme.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  12. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he will pardon himself but he will his family, and just about anyone who might be a witness/ colluding to his crimes or those of his family. He will to try gut the prosecution witness lists of 'collaborators'.

    Those who may not be in need of a pardon, he will try to bribe with positions in the Party.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
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  13. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  14. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trump can not Pardon himself, well he can, but then the SC would strick it down as it would set a bad precedence

    that said, I think Biden will let the States have Trump first anyways
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  15. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Remember the constitution predates any notion of 'party loyalty' It was assumed that the VP might be a political enemy with absolutely no loyalty to the President, albeit one with sufficient national political strength and prowess to earn a VP spot on his own. Think Adams/Jefferson. It was a nifty way to get ones political rival out of the way for awhile while you governed with allies in the cabinet. . Back then, Trump might have been President, and Hillary VP, as opposed to Pence.

    That's interesting when you think of the VP as the tie breaker in Senate ties. He wasn't necessarily seen as a loyal puppy dog for the Administration, but instead someone with his own political power base.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  16. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Ha, ha! No, Asherah, I may be a fool, but not fool enough to place bets on anything that Donald Trump does, or does not do! And actually, that's one of the main reasons that all of America's adversaries will be thrilled to see him gone! The man is totally unpredictable, and very capable of seismic shifts in his beliefs, logic, loyalties, and patterns of action in breathtakingly short periods of time.

    I said way back in 2016 that even a master 'chess-player' on the international scene like Vladimir Putin would be much more comfortable dealing with a completely predictable, corrupt, doctrinaire old 'hippie-chick' like Hillary Clinton than a bizarre, erratic billionaire like Donald Trump!

    Now, back to what I said (and have been saying for a while now) -- I said that Trump, as President of the United States, has actually done (DONE) nothing that needs 'pardoning', per se. This klatsch of radical Democrats have hounded him every moment since sunrise after the 2016 election, desperately trying to pin something -- anything -- on him.

    They accused him of "Russia, Russia, Russia", but even after years and millions of dollars were spent, what did Mueller find that was criminal...? NOTHING!

    They impeached him, using two "Articles" -- neither of which even contained allegations of a "crime"... and then the whole thing was thrown out by the Senate. We've already been THROUGH this, Asherah....

    All that, and everything else I've written in the thread notwithstanding, to be unmistakably clear: I would not -- could not -- support the idea or actuality of Donald Trump 'pardoning himself'! Still -- as unpredictable as the man has always been ('sun-sign in Gemini'), if he tried to 'pardon himself' he would do so without the support or approval of MANY right-wing Conservatives like me!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  17. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Russian Kompromat goes back to the 1800s, it's a tradition.

    Worked on Trump...
     
  18. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and even though there were mountains of it on Hillary, and lots of other liberal Democrats, all of the "Kompromat" on them was swept under the rug, or simply ignored....
     
  19. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    The American Putin hates most is Hillary.

    Do you make that crap up or do you get it from Breitbart (which plays pattycake with the Russians) or some other 'out there' website.
     
  20. Asherah

    Asherah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's close enough to a bet. I will at least hold you to this if he does the deed.

    Will it also bother you if he preemptively pardons Giuliani and his kids? Won't that also look suspicious?
     
  21. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    If Trump pardons himself, you'll have to get in line behind me to raise hell about it.

    Now, as far as Giuliani, his kids, or anybody else goes, NO, I don't like it, but it is 'constitutional' and many other presidents have made ample use of the 'presidential pardon' prerogative. I don't like it when any president does this, and I don't even think that 'pardons', per se, should be legal. But, again -- NOT for a president himself.
     
  22. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Believe me, if you had ever had two different TS security clearances yourself, you'd KNOW what Hillary did, and with specificity.

    Here, I'll give you just one, and then if you like, you can go on digging into reasons why she should be in prison right now: https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...e2ee06-dbd6-11e5-81ae-7491b9b9e7df_story.html . Washington Post good enough for you...? :nana:

    I tell you in truth -- if myself or anybody else had done the irresponsible, reckless, ignorant, and STOOPID things Hillary Clinton did with classified information (especially at HER lofty level), we "little people" would have had our clearances taken away immediately, we'd have been charged with federal crimes, we' have been fired from our jobs, and, we'd have been slapped with a prison sentence and heavy fines!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  23. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    I went over that in excruciating detail.

    Which rules believing you out permanently.

    As is the case with most everything, Trump is a million times worse, and his cronies also suck at security.
     
  24. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Well...

    Number #1: You didn't refute anything I wrote in my Post #72 (above).
    Number #2: You didn't provide any proof, evidence, links, or insight into whatever it is you were babbling about when you said, "Trump is a million times worse".

    Question: When did President Trump break federal law and the NSA mandates concerning classified information on 'unsecured' communications/computer devices? Got anything besides unsubstantiated spew...? No...?

    Hint: if a person transmits, receives, or re-transmits classified information on a communications/computer device that is not (NOT) fully protected by an NSA-approved Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility (SCIF), that person has BROKEN THE LAW -- period.

    Have a lovely day, and, really, you should be happy! Biden is going to become president at noon on January 20th, and 'all will be right with the world'... right? :woot:
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  25. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Trump uses his personal phone, so do some others. You said you were expert on security, I figured you'd know.

    The Hillary thing is a horse that was beaten to death, and then beaten into a thin smear on the pavement. I try to avoid that particular bit of propaganda. Sleazy attacks on Hillary has been a staple of Right wing lunacy for a generation.

    Enough.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020

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