Wind power helps keep Texas cool

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by MannieD, Aug 9, 2011.

  1. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    With all the complaints of windpower not being able to replace fossil fuels, it looks like wind power is helping Texans keep cool by supplying power when coal could not meet the demand.
     
  2. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    and to the dismay of right winger deniers everywhere GWB is a big promoter of wind power...
     
  3. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    From what I learned from my niece and her boyfriend, who both work for Gamesa, this weekend that is not a surprise. Oil companies are invested in wind power. With their investment and their political power, it is unlikely that the naysayers, as my niece labelled them, will have much success in curtailing wind power.

    I also learned their are three grids: eastern, western and Texas. :)
     
  4. Windigo

    Windigo Banned

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    Its always nice to put on blinders to the fact that said wind power has already blacked out all of the Texas intertie once. Okay the wind was blowing, this time. It is no less intermittent.
     
  5. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    What is a "Texas intertie"? (Were you not the one that complained about my use of the English language?)

    It seems wind power was reliable enough to provide the needed power to help keep Texans cool.

    Another thing I learned this weekend is that wind power is not meant to replace coal, but to supply power for an increasing energy need. Without wind (and solar) power, new coal plants or nuclear power plants would have to be built to supply the increasing demand for power.
     
  6. Windigo

    Windigo Banned

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    No (*)(*)(*)(*). We have a hot front and cold front right where the wind farms are. This creates a lot of wind right now. But it is still intermittent in the long run.

    They have to be built anyways to supply when the wind isnt blowing. There is no storage on the system.
     
  7. jackdog

    jackdog Well-Known Member

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    now all they have to do is figure out a way to get the wind to blow 24 and seven and we will be home free
     
  8. livefree

    livefree Banned

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    <<<Mod Edit: Personal Attack Removed>>> Perhaps you should face the 'facts' on this subject. Wind power is a success, it is being utilized more and more all around the world, and new construction of wind energy systems is accelerating. Problems with energy storage and intermittency are being solved.

    Wind power
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The total amount of economically extractable power available from the wind is considerably more than present human power use from all sources. The most comprehensive study as of 2005 found the potential of wind power on land and near-shore to be 72 TW, equivalent to 54,000 MToE (million tons of oil equivalent) per year, or over five times the world's current energy use in all forms. The potential takes into account only locations with mean annual wind speeds &#8805; 6.9 m/s at 80 m.

    Pumped-storage hydroelectricity or other forms of grid energy storage can store energy developed by high-wind periods and release it when needed. Stored energy increases the economic value of wind energy since it can be shifted to displace higher cost generation during peak demand periods. The potential revenue from this arbitrage can offset the cost and losses of storage; the cost of storage may add 25% to the cost of any wind energy stored, but it is not envisaged that this would apply to a large proportion of wind energy generated. For example, in the UK, the 2 GW Dinorwig pumped storage plant evens out electrical demand peaks, and allows base-load suppliers to run their plant more efficiently. Although pumped storage power systems are only about 75% efficient, and have high installation costs, their low running costs and ability to reduce the required electrical base-load can save both fuel and total electrical generation costs.

    Another option is to interconnect widely dispersed geographic areas with an HVDC "Super grid".

    In the UK, demand for electricity is higher in winter than in summer, and so are wind speeds.[45][46] Solar power tends to be complementary to wind.[47][48] On daily to weekly timescales, high pressure areas tend to bring clear skies and low surface winds, whereas low pressure areas tend to be windier and cloudier. On seasonal timescales, solar energy typically peaks in summer, whereas in many areas wind energy is lower in summer and higher in winter.[49] Thus the intermittencies of wind and solar power tend to cancel each other somewhat. The Institute for Solar Energy Supply Technology of the University of Kassel pilot-tested a combined power plant linking solar, wind, biogas and hydrostorage to provide load-following power around the clock, entirely from renewable sources.

    Three reports on the wind variability in the UK issued in 2009, generally agree that variability of wind needs to be taken into account, but it does not make the grid unmanageable; and the additional costs, which are modest, can be quantified.[53]

    According to a 2007 Stanford University study published in the Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology, interconnecting ten or more wind farms can allow an average of 33% of the total energy produced to be used as reliable, baseload electric power, as long as minimum criteria are met for wind speed and turbine height.

    The marginal cost of wind energy once a plant is constructed is usually less than 1 cent per kW·h. In 2004, wind energy cost a fifth of what it did in the 1980s...

    Compared to the environmental impact of traditional energy sources, the environmental impact of wind power is relatively minor. Wind power consumes no fuel, and emits no air pollution, unlike fossil fuel power sources. The energy consumed to manufacture and transport the materials used to build a wind power plant is equal to the new energy produced by the plant within a few months. While a wind farm may cover a large area of land, many land uses such as agriculture are compatible, with only small areas of turbine foundations and infrastructure made unavailable for use.[73]

    A wind farm is a group of wind turbines in the same location used for production of electric power. A large wind farm may consist of several hundred individual wind turbines, and cover an extended area of hundreds of square miles, but the land between the turbines may be used for agricultural or other purposes. A wind farm may also be located offshore.

    Many of the largest operational onshore wind farms are located in the US. As of November 2010, the Roscoe Wind Farm is the largest onshore wind farm in the world at 781.5 MW, followed by the Horse Hollow Wind Energy Center (735.5 MW). As of November 2010, the Thanet Wind Farm in the UK is the largest offshore wind farm in the world at 300 MW, followed by Horns Rev II (209 MW) in Denmark.

    Offshore wind power refers to the construction of wind farms in bodies of water to generate electricity from wind. Better wind speeds are available offshore compared to on land, so offshore wind power&#8217;s contribution in terms of electricity supplied is higher.[22]

    Siemens and Vestas are the leading turbine suppliers for offshore wind power. DONG Energy, Vattenfall and E.ON are the leading offshore operators.[22] As of October 2010, 3.16 GW of offshore wind power capacity was operational, mainly in Northern Europe. According to BTM Consult, more than 16 GW of additional capacity will be installed before the end of 2014 and the UK and Germany will become the two leading markets. Offshore wind power capacity is expected to reach a total of 75 GW worldwide by 2020, with significant contributions from China and the US.[22]

    ***

    'Energy Bag' Offshore Wind Energy Storage
    Thin Red Line Aerospace develops the 'Energy Bag,' a high-pressure balloon that holds compressed air as power storage for offshore wind farms

    7 Jun 2011
    (excerpts)

    One of the biggest problems facing renewable energy like wind power is its inability to store energy. Giant battery units are needed to hold the power created, otherwise the energy must be fed directly into the grid. This can create irregularities in energy generation during low wind periods, and developers continue to seek out low cost alternatives to store the energy created. One novel approach is the use of compressed air. The wind turbines can power air compressors to fill tanks, then the high-pressure air can be released to run generators for electricity.

    The process is conceptually straight forward: Wind turbines fill the balloon-like underwater bags with compressed air that later drives electrical generators on demand. While initial application is ideally linked to floating wind turbines, excess electricity from the grid&#8212;or from clean energy sources such as tidal and wave power&#8212;can also be used to drive compressors to fill the energy bags. The technology is especially suited to countries with relatively deep waters near their coasts.

    Unlike on-ground compressed air storage units, which must be made of high-strength materials like carbon fiber to bear the high-pressure required to sufficiently generate energy on demand, the Energy Bag uses the naturally occurring pressure in deep sea conditions to contain the compressed air in a modified balloon design. Just one Energy Bag can store approximately 70 MW hours of energy, or the equivalent of 14 hours of energy generation from the largest offshore wind turbine models. The Energy Bag is expected to cost far below what an equivalent battery storage system would.


    (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.)
     
  9. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    Did you both miss this part :
    Another thing I learned this weekend is that wind power is not meant to replace coal, but to supply power for an increasing energy need. Without wind (and solar) power, new coal plants or nuclear power plants would have to be built to supply the increasing demand for power.
    If , for now, wind power is supplemental power to supply the increasing demand, then wind power does not have to supply power 24/7/365. And as Livefree points out the technology is improving.

    ETA:
    And Iowa looks likes it is on the way to get 20% of its power from wind:

     
  10. Windigo

    Windigo Banned

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    Ahem, as it relates to this present heat wave here is how well Wind has supplied the power needed to cool Texas during the heat wave.

    [​IMG]

    Looks like the wind didn't do (*)(*)(*)(*). It was totally out of phase with the demand.

    How does it feel to be such a mark mannie?
     
  11. Windigo

    Windigo Banned

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    And when the wind quickly goes to near 0 what then? The generation has to exist somewhere close to the load. Don&#8217;t give me this HVDC crap. That is for scheduled power. HVDC cannot handle large sudden unexpected shifts in power flow. Generation has to be close to the load in order to supply the necessary VARs to the system quickly. Without it the entire system becomes unstable and collapses.

    For every single MW of wind power installed there has to be an equal MW of fast reacting conventional generation in spinning reserve ready nearby. This fast reacting conventional generation is usually less efficient than your highly efficient large combined cycle generation which is normally base loaded and cannot react fast to sudden changes.

    You need to quit talking to your sister. Your sister doesn't know (*)(*)(*)(*)! She probably works in the finance department or something. Talk to a (*)(*)(*)(*)ing dispatcher they are the experts and they will give you the straight scoop on how power generation and transmission actually works.
     
  12. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    Actually my niece is a technician that services the turbines.
    How about the DOE?
     
  13. Windigo

    Windigo Banned

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    So she knows nothing of power dispatch.

    You trust the DOE to be a fair arbiter?
     
  14. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    Oh Goodie! A graph from an anonymous poster on Reddit! :rolleyes:
    How does it feel to be such a mark Windie?
     
  15. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    Unless you can come up with some actual information showing otherwise, yes.
     
  16. Windigo

    Windigo Banned

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    It shows exactly what your article says. At the time of peak demand Aug 3rd wind was producing about 2000MW but it puts it in much better context. Are you saying the entire graph is a lie? It seems odd that a lying graph would get that data point so correct.

    BTW ERCOT puts out that graph in a PDF you can look at here.

    http://www.ercot.com/gridinfo/generation/

    In your desperation you accused the source without checking. <<<Mod Edit: Personal Attack Removed>>>
     
  17. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    Good! Then we agree: Wind Power helps keep Texa(n)s cool.
     
  18. gmb92

    gmb92 New Member

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    While wind power probably kept massive blackouts from occuring, the grid has been under enormous strain due to the worst heatwave on record in Texas/OK - heatwaves which will only become more common and worsen going forward. As pointed out here, they could use some big incentives for solar PV.

    http://www.grist.org/list/2011-08-0...r-means-texas-is-paying-40-times-more-for-pow
     
  19. Windigo

    Windigo Banned

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    If you think that we agree you are more delusional then I thought you were. Your article plays word games to make it sound like the wind was doing excellent but anyone who can read a graph can tell that it wasn't. It was 90 degrees out of phase with demand. At the hour of peak load the wind was at the lowest it had been all week. Your article played word games. Your article acts like the 2000MW was great because it was more than expected. But it neglects to say that it is far less than the installed capacity and was only more than expected because ERCOT dispatchers have come to expect very little from wind.

    Face it your wind doesn't supply power when needed.
     
  20. Windigo

    Windigo Banned

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    It kept massive blackouts from occurring at night???? Your argument is temporally unsound.
     
  21. gmb92

    gmb92 New Member

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    That's odd. I don't see any evidence that wind output was nill during the day. You've provided evidence to the contrary, supporting the OP. But you do help make my point. Solar works well in tandem with wind power. Solar provides most output in the day, even more useful on the hot stifling days when the wind is low. It's one of several ways intemittency can be mitigated. Others:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_energy_source#Solving_intermittency
     
  22. livefree

    livefree Banned

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    It seems worth reiterating a few of the key points from post #8 on this thread as an antidote to the misinformation about wind power that some people were brainwashed with and can't seem to get past or stop posting. Indeterminacy and power storage are problems that are being solved very quickly.

    From the Wikipedia article I cited:

    Pumped-storage hydroelectricity or other forms of grid energy storage can store energy developed by high-wind periods and release it when needed. Stored energy increases the economic value of wind energy since it can be shifted to displace higher cost generation during peak demand periods. The potential revenue from this arbitrage can offset the cost and losses of storage; the cost of storage may add 25% to the cost of any wind energy stored, but it is not envisaged that this would apply to a large proportion of wind energy generated. For example, in the UK, the 2 GW Dinorwig pumped storage plant evens out electrical demand peaks, and allows base-load suppliers to run their plant more efficiently. Although pumped storage power systems are only about 75% efficient, and have high installation costs, their low running costs and ability to reduce the required electrical base-load can save both fuel and total electrical generation costs. Another option is to interconnect widely dispersed geographic areas with an HVDC "Super grid".

    In the UK, demand for electricity is higher in winter than in summer, and so are wind speeds.[45][46] Solar power tends to be complementary to wind.[47][48] On daily to weekly timescales, high pressure areas tend to bring clear skies and low surface winds, whereas low pressure areas tend to be windier and cloudier. On seasonal timescales, solar energy typically peaks in summer, whereas in many areas wind energy is lower in summer and higher in winter.[49] Thus the intermittencies of wind and solar power tend to cancel each other somewhat. The Institute for Solar Energy Supply Technology of the University of Kassel pilot-tested a combined power plant linking solar, wind, biogas and hydrostorage to provide load-following power around the clock, entirely from renewable sources.

    Three reports on the wind variability in the UK issued in 2009, generally agree that variability of wind needs to be taken into account, but it does not make the grid unmanageable; and the additional costs, which are modest, can be quantified.[53]

    According to a 2007 Stanford University study published in the Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology, interconnecting ten or more wind farms can allow an average of 33% of the total energy produced to be used as reliable, baseload electric power'Energy Bag' Offshore Wind Energy Storage, as long as minimum criteria are met for wind speed and turbine height.

    The marginal cost of wind energy once a plant is constructed is usually less than 1 cent per kW·h. In 2004, wind energy cost a fifth of what it did in the 1980s...


    ***

    And again, here's another promising new development that will dramatically cut the cost of storing the excess power production from off shore wind farms during times of high wind speeds to offset power needs during times of low wind speed and also to provide instant on-demand power to balance normal fluctuation of the load on the system.

    'Energy Bag' Offshore Wind Energy Storage
    Thin Red Line Aerospace develops the 'Energy Bag,' a high-pressure balloon that holds compressed air as power storage for offshore wind farms
    (excerpt)

    Unlike on-ground compressed air storage units, which must be made of high-strength materials like carbon fiber to bear the high-pressure required to sufficiently generate energy on demand, the Energy Bag uses the naturally occurring pressure in deep sea conditions to contain the compressed air in a modified balloon design. Just one Energy Bag can store approximately 70 MW hours of energy, or the equivalent of 14 hours of energy generation from the largest offshore wind turbine models. The Energy Bag is expected to cost far below what an equivalent battery storage system would.



    ***
     
  23. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    Wind power supplied enough power to prevent a level 2 emergency.
    Easy question for you, windy: Is 2000MW greater than 0 MW?
     
  24. Windigo

    Windigo Banned

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    And you accuse me of throwing terms around.

    Fact, so long as there are is no loss of supply there will be no blackouts due to under generations as the load is going down. Blackouts due to under generation occur as the load is going up. If you don&#8217;t have a blackout before the hour of peak load you aren't going to have one. If you can supply enough generation at the hour of peak load you are good for the day.

    Is 2000MW of very expensive and unreliable power at 5:00PM well after the peak load occurred really worth anything? The power was needed hours earlier during the ramp up to and hour of peak load. <<<Mod Edit: Personal Attack Removed>>> The wind provided the lowest amount of power it had all week when it was needed most and you fell for the power company&#8217;s spin. The graph doesn't lie. The wind power wasn't there when it was needed and your link is nothing but spin on what was a failure.

    P.S. If your niece knew (*)(*)(*)(*) about power transmission the dolt would know that over generation is just as bad as under generation. Having the wind ramping up when the load is going down isn't a good thing. It increased the risk of over generation. If the frequency rises just a few hundredth of HZ you will also get a blackout as units trip off line due to over frequency. You niece is a grunt. She doesn&#8217;t know (*)(*)(*)(*) about how the industry actually works. She just works on a small piece of a larger system that she doesn&#8217;t understand.
     

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