Wind Power Milestone Reached!

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Derideo_Te, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...ow-carbon-sources_uk_585cd968e4b00768ddcead3d


    Perhaps the most significant part was this;

    Granted it might be small but having an entire country like Scotland be able to have 106% of it's electricity come from wind power alone is significant.

    And on a side note it is worth recalling that Trump called wind farms in Scotland a "blight".

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...llies-against-windfarms-golf-courses-scotland

    Got to wonder how well that comment would go down now that those wind farms are producing clean renewable energy on a scale large enough for the entire country to benefit.

    Whether you approve or appose renewable energy it is obvious that it has achieved a significant milestone when it comes to competing with fossil fuels.
     
  2. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And what happens when the wind dies down (or the wind blows too hard) ??
     
  3. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    The article mentioned exactly what happened with high winds;

    If you want to know how wind turbines work here is a good website;

    http://www.ewea.org/wind-energy-basics/faq/

    Wind turbines do have a standard automatic shutdown in the event of an overload condition because they are usually located in areas where there is a constant source of wind.

    In the event of the wind dropping for a period the UK grid relies upon other sources such as solar, nuclear and natural gas. Coal is being phased out since it is a major source of pollution.
     
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  4. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There must be a back up source of power equal to the maximum grid requirements. The addition of wind capacity adds to the cost of electricity with no benefit.
     
  5. Befuddled Alien

    Befuddled Alien Member

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    No. There mustn't.

    .. and no it doesn't.
     
  6. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What's the economic cost expressed as price per kwh of providing the redundant wind power equipment ??

    What's the effect on global average temperature in the year 2100 provided by the wind power equipment utilization in Scotland ??
     
  7. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    When I saw the thread title I was sure that this thread was about the harnessing of all that hot air in Trump Tower as an unlimited source of hot wind power.
     
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  8. Befuddled Alien

    Befuddled Alien Member

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    Neither of your queries support your assertions. Why do you think that they would??

    So until you provide evidence that "There must be a back up source of power equal to the maximum grid requirements." and "The addition of wind capacity adds to the cost of electricity with no benefit.", the answers remain "No it mustn't" and "No it doesn't"
     
  9. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Adding additional capacity which is used on an intermittent basis must add to the price of electrical power. This is paid either directly by the consumers or indirectly by taxpayers.

    Use of the MAGICC calculator (from the 0.352 thread) shows that there is no measurable reduction in the global average temperature resulting from the wind power generation in Scotland.
     
  10. Befuddled Alien

    Befuddled Alien Member

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    And now we have a 3rd unsupported assertion, to which the only sensible reply is "No it mustn't"

    In summary we have:

    "There must be a back up source of power equal to the maximum grid requirements."
    "The addition of wind capacity adds to the cost of electricity with no benefit."
    "Adding additional capacity which is used on an intermittent basis must add to the price of electrical power."

    All 3 of these statements are false.
     
  11. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The first statement does not represent what I said and the remaining two are absolutely true. Economics 101 and Climate Science 101.
     
  12. Befuddled Alien

    Befuddled Alien Member

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    Yes it does. It is a verbatim quote. Here is the quote from you:
    No they are not. Economics 102. The falseness of the other two statements has nothing to do with climate science.

    So we still have:

    "There must be a back up source of power equal to the maximum grid requirements."
    "The addition of wind capacity adds to the cost of electricity with no benefit."
    "Adding additional capacity which is used on an intermittent basis must add to the price of electrical power."

    All 3 of these statements are false. An intelligent and curious person would easily be able to discern WHY these are false.
     
  13. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In the case of intermittent power sources the "back up" are the 24/7/365 fossil fuel, nuclear, and hydroelectrc sources. The intermittent sources cannot stand by themselves.

    Still playing your academic word games I see. Econ 101 and Climate Science 101 show that redundant capacity adds to energy prices and the insignificant global CO2 reduction results in no reduction in global average temperature.
     
  14. sawyer

    sawyer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So do these nuclear and natural gas powerplants just sit there fully manned and doing nothing? Can they immediately start up and take over when wind conditions are not favorable? How much does it cost to have them sit idle and how much does it cost to have the workers at these plants sit there and play cards waiting to be activated? Who pays these cost?
     
  15. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But, but ... there is no economic damage resulting from intermittent power sources. :fingerscrossed:
     
  16. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    What utter nonsense!

    Are you saying that when the wind is blowing and generating power there is no cost benefit to the grid at all?
     
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  17. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    The wind power in Scotland is not redundant since it is providing electricity. It is the polluting and outdated coal fired plants that are becoming redundant.

    As far as your strawman goes it was duly noted and ignored.
     
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  18. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The cost of the wind and solar equipment must be amortized into the price of electricity. What does that do to the price of electricity ??
     
  19. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Why are these costs any different to what has been happening with power grids during the past decades? Has no coal fired or nuclear plant ever gone offline in the past? Have those workers not sat around and played cards while the plant was being repaired/refurbished?

    Why introduce meaningless red herrings that have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic?
     
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  20. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And when it is not producing electricity coal fired power plants must be available. The entire electrical demand in Scotland is provided by energy sources which are available 24/7/365. The wind and solar capacity are not needed and increase the price of electricity. And there is no reduction in the global average temperature. Germany has been shutting down their nuclear plants and replacing them with coal fired units.
     
  21. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maintenance schedules and capacity are configured to accommodate maintenance. Cost and prices of electrical power are not red herrings. They are part of a cost/benefit analysis. The only reason that home solar units are economic is because of subsidies - taxpayers pay for part of the solar equipment costs. If they did not do so the pay back period would be very long or infinite.
     
  22. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    So you believe that it is entirely probable that the wind will not be blowing anywhere at all across the entire UK? :eekeyes:

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Do you also believe that they would install a wind farm in some place where the wind only blows occasionally?

    Or would they find the places with the most constant and consistent winds of all to locate the turbines?
     
  23. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    If you bothered to read the link that I provided you would have seen that wind power is now on a par with the costs of fossil fuels.

    Utilities are smart enough to know that the cost of fossil fuels is going to increase whereas the cost of wind/solar fuel will always be the same at zero dollars.

    It makes economic sense for utilities to separate themselves from the being held hostage by the fossil fuel special interests.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Where is the source for your allegations?

    - - - Updated - - -

    So nuclear plants were never subsidized? Is that what you are trying to say now?
     
  24. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I live within 2 miles of a large wind farm in northern CA. Many days and nights the turbines are not rotating. And many days they are shut down due to high winds. And many days some are not rotating whilst others are rotating for some reason.

    Who pays for all this equipment and down time. Consumers in their electric bills. 24/7/365 power plants do not have this functional problem or this economic problem.

    BTW, adding up all the circles yields ~ 800 megawatts which is less than one nuclear power plant.
     
  25. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A country cannot run on solar and wind power for obvious reasons.

    My sources are readily available on the internet. Anyone familiar with solar and wind knows what is going on in Germany.
     

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