Women in Combat? Why?

Discussion in 'Security & Defenses' started by Greataxe, Jan 24, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    9,400
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The Obama Adminstration, flush with its recent vicorty in allowing gays to openly serve in the military, is now moving to allow women to serve in combat. The Army has been pushing to place a unknown percentage of women in each MOS (Military Occupational Specialty otherwise known as a "job").

    Based on science, the AFPT (or Armed Forces Physical Fitness Test) cuts a large break for one's age and gender. Women have only about 60% of the strength of men. Studies in past have shown women have a non-deployment rate four times higher than men. Brute force is required of any combat soldier that must carry very heavy gear in terrible conditions. Massive strength is also required for many support jobs working on heavy equipment in extreme environments.

    Modern history shows few examples of women used in front line roles. The Soviet Union used quite a few women in WW2, even for front line combat and sniper work. They even had all-women bands of partisans. Of course they died in droves like the men and arn't being used in the current Russian Army. How women would do loaded down with modern body armour, packs and weapons is very questionable. There have been a relative few women used in Afghganistan by some NATO countries. So far there have been no glowing reports.

    Besides political correctness and social justice, can anyone give an intelligent reason why women should be allowed into any combat role? If women are equal to the task, why don't we also create all female Ranger units and SEAL teams?
     
    Right Hook and (deleted member) like this.
  2. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    21,346
    Likes Received:
    298
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Women are already serving in combat roles as pilots and other air crew members
    in the Army, Air Force and Navy. For those who think piloting a fighter aircraft
    or attack helicopter isn't physically challenging, my only comment to that is...
    you've never done it if you think it's easy.

    I've seen the toughest, hardest soldiers and Marines reach for the vomit bags
    after a corkscrew approach for a tactical landing.

    Flying in combat situations is physically challenging and women are up to the role.

    I do agree that most women don't have the physical strength to
    carry 50 or 60 lbs. of gear hoofing it on long patrols...

    However women have already, and are already in combat roles and are doing
    so effectively as any man.
     
    Doug_yvr and (deleted member) like this.
  3. krunkskimo

    krunkskimo New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,219
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I forsee this never happening.

    Women that do see combat already operate out of large FOB's which can accommodate segredated facilities.

    Infantry units especially in isolated areas dont have the space.

    of course unless women dont mind watching guys clean their balls with baby wipes in the humvee's or giving themselves bottle showers with no privacy.

    or (*)(*)(*)(*)ing in ditches with your ass in the air.
     
  4. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    9,400
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Flying aircraft is not the same as humping anywhere from 60 to 150 lbs of gear in the moutains. I'd like to see a study showing how effective any group of women would be operating as infantry in A-stan. In fact, I'd like to see how well even a group of steroid-enhanced, weightlifting females would do in competition with a platoon of combat infantry Marines or Army in a battle simulation. Is there any data out there that says they are equal to men? I'm sure our enemies would like our troops to be 40% weaker.
     
  5. whiteguysteve

    whiteguysteve New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So we can all get on our knees and worship at the feet of "equality'.
     
  6. Up On the Governor

    Up On the Governor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,469
    Likes Received:
    164
    Trophy Points:
    63
    First of all, I am not sure you know what pain goes along with flying a combat aircraft. Please do not take it lightly. To compare it with carrying gear and humping around the desert is stupid, because it is a completely different type of physical strain.

    Secondly, you are making a case on "women in combat" and Herkdriver was correcting you. You would like to talk about "women in infantry roles." Semantics aside, you will not find many in favor of putting women in those positions, even us females in the military. The military is not for social experiments. While some women may be fully capable of handling those jobs, they are few and far in between. You will not get the numbers you need to create separate unit.

    I am not sure why it bothers you guys so much to keep making threads about this and discussing it ad nauseam, but it is unlikely to happen anyways.
     
  7. Gunny1

    Gunny1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I served in forward combat units for pretty much my entire 31-year service. And from my personal experience there's no reason not to allow them to serve in such units, even SOC units, as long as the standards remain the same. No gender norming.

    Men will have to adjust to seeing women being shot and wounded/killed and fight their natural instincts to maintain. But besides that there's no reason I have ever seen in my experience that says women can't serve in infantry and combat units.
     
    creation and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Gansett

    Gansett New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    We have a full fledged female fire fighter here, 27, about 5'5", maybe 130 pounds and has carried out the 240 pound guys in her full gear. Does everything the guys do. To top if off she's real easy on the eyes too.

    Women are not neccessarily the weaker sex.
     
  9. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    9,400
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Would you rely on a weapon, a tank or any other piece of gear that was tested to be 40% weaker, that broke down four times as often, or sometimes had to taken out of action for 9 months at a time for downtime? Would you mind if any of your troops suffered greater casualities as a result?

    At anytime in your long experience in the military did you have any greater problems with work, fitness or moral issues with women in your units? This is what I saw. Just wondering.
     
  10. Gunny1

    Gunny1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You won't have to worry about that as long as there's no gender norming. Keep the standards the same and everyone will be equal and be able to hold their own and carry their own weight.

    You're acting like women pop one out every year. If one of them does get pregnant then they take leave and return when and if they are able. It's not a big deal and wouldn't happen very often.

    It wouldn't happen if the standards remained the same.
     
  11. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    9,400
    Likes Received:
    1,348
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I do think standards should be the same, but they will never make them the same. The Army and Marine Corps arn't even allowed to keep data on fitness and deployment rates for men and women.
     
  12. freethepeople1916

    freethepeople1916 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Your term for war seems to be different than mine. When you talk about going to war your making this choice of joining an army to kill people, whereas many places in the world the war comes to them and they have no option but defence, so to say if its right or wrong, well to be honest the question is really is war right or wrong or invasions because if these did not occur then no women nor men would need to fight.

    Women have played a strong role in military affairs but this is because of the situtation they find themselves for example, Volunteer Mairead Farrell of the Irish Republican Army was forced into a position where she either lived on her knees or fought for equality and freedom. I think those that willing join an army because of the money should think twice as they are only removing family members who are going to sit and eat together tonight. Lets all go home and sort out the poverty in the world and the imbalances.

    Are we not one people?
     
    Falena and (deleted member) like this.
  13. Gunny1

    Gunny1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't see them allowing them unless they are.
     
  14. Logan R Hall

    Logan R Hall New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think seeing a woman get shot might be traumatic enough to throw me off. For some reason it would be more so if it were a military comrade than an innocent civilian. That's one thing I don't look forward to after I'm deployed.
     
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,844
    Likes Received:
    2,654
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    But the standards are not the same. And we have known that for years.

    One of my first experiences in "Gender Inequality" was when I joined the Marines in the 1980's. Men had to do pullups, situps, and a 3 mile run. Women had to do situps, flexed arm hang, and a mile and a half run.

    In the modern Army however, men and women do the exact same PT test (situps, pushups, 2 mile run). However, they are graded quite differently.

    At my age (46), I need 34 pushups to pass the PT test, 73 to get a perfect score. Women need only 13, with 37 for a perfect score. I need 32 situps to pass, 72 for a perfect score. Women need the same number (the only chart where they are equal).

    I need to run 2 miles in 18:42 in order to pass, 14:06 for a perfect score. If I was female however, I only need to run it in 23:42 to pass, 15:36 for a perfect score.

    Now here is where things really get strange. I am on what is called a "Permanent Profile", because of knee pain. This means that I do not run my test, but I do a 2.5 mile walk. And my time allowed to pass is 36:30 (39:30 for women my age). However, I am a very fast walker, and several times I have come in after a mile and a half before women that are only running 2 miles (my average 2.5 mile time is around 22 minutes).

    There is simply no way the APFT tests of any service will be fair or equal. But if you are going to try and put women into select combat roles (like Infantry) and they can't do the exact same things as the men do in the same times, then you will be sending more of them home in body bags (and at a higher percentile then the men).
     
  16. Up On the Governor

    Up On the Governor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,469
    Likes Received:
    164
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Well, that is your own deficiency. That is not a woman's fault.
     
  17. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    17,385
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Have a link?

    Modern history shows few examples of women used in front line roles.
    Well there are a number of factors for that.

    Are you saying they died in droves because they were women? If not, then this is irrelevant.

    I heard they fight already so why are you wandering?

    Because they have the ability to fill such a role.

    Because men may be better - ie physically. You need to show why women should be in more general positions however. You have yet to do this.
     
  18. Til the Last Drop

    Til the Last Drop Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    9,069
    Likes Received:
    384
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Honestly, do you want to keep having to cater to women like it's 1890, while having to carry all the crappy roles in society? I say give women true equality, until they beg for an old fashion society. Men needing women is a myth. They should be asking us out, paying for the date and eventually the ring.
     
  19. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    17,385
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Are you like a pro-male militant homosexual or something?

    Please tell me you are joking. I am laughing right now btw.
     
  20. Gunny1

    Gunny1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There's an all-female unit for Army's Delta Force known in certain circles as Funny Platoon.
     
  21. Til the Last Drop

    Til the Last Drop Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    9,069
    Likes Received:
    384
    Trophy Points:
    83
    You live in another nation. At this point in America, women are required socially to contribute nothing to a man's happiness, but men are still required to not only do everything they ever were expected to contribute, but also, all the stuff women use to be required to do, or they are not a modern man. Fact is, men just need sex. Men have let everything they use to get go by the wayside, just glad to still be able to get laid, and most men I know who do get married even get denied that after awhile. It's women who play house before they even know how to speak. It's women who have every aspect of their lives revolve around relationships and the drama that comes with them. It's women who need men, men are just so stupid they can't even read between the lines and see who truly has the power in the relationship. Proof, your post. By all means, keep paying their bills while taking out the trash. Keep taking women who have slept with a 100 men on moonlit walks to be the next in line. Just do me a favor, on your death bed write down for your sons how well it all worked out for you. Let women fight. And don't be appalled anymore than you would of a man when they die.
     
  22. Up On the Governor

    Up On the Governor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,469
    Likes Received:
    164
    Trophy Points:
    63
    So do you enjoy living the life of gross hyperbole, generalizations, and self-pity?
     
  23. Til the Last Drop

    Til the Last Drop Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    9,069
    Likes Received:
    384
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Just because there are exceptions to the rule, does not change the rule. What movies do they make to target women? What TV shows do they make to target women? Everything I say is fact. WOMEN WANT EQUALITY. I speak and think like their dream man, or do I?
     
  24. Up On the Governor

    Up On the Governor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,469
    Likes Received:
    164
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I have many female friends and only one of them enjoys drama, structures their life around a relationship, ect. For that one, she takes meds for anxiety. We are not really "exceptions" anymore, but rather a sizable group.

    What makes you think we need men? Hell, I can buy the only use for a man on Amazon.com. It does more tricks too.
     
  25. Til the Last Drop

    Til the Last Drop Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    9,069
    Likes Received:
    384
    Trophy Points:
    83
    LOL.Please. I guess those who target women for sales have no idea what they're doing then. I was raised by women, work around women(line cook) and I can tell your right now, with out bragging or complaining about the current relationship they're in, I think they would just sit silent. You could try and make the argument that society programs women to be like this, but anyone with young girls knows they play house and dress up from the beginning, without any encouragement. You have a pic of a jet, so I'm assuming your in the military, probably just hang around other women in the military, so your perception is misconstrued because you are surrounded by exceptions to the rule. I give you props on being an individual, but you do not represent most women. Besides, most women who would be in the military want to be equal, that is simply all I am offering. We should be on the same side in this argument.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page