World’s First Of It’s Kind Surgery Saves Miami Girl’s(*)Life

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by TheHat, Jun 22, 2012.

  1. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    I never got why the term "life" always comes up in this debate, and usualy from both sides. An amoeba or a plant is a life. A braindead and legaly dead human with no rights is often biologically alive when still on life support.

    Use the term "person" or "human being" if you want to be taken seriously. "Life" alone is no guarantee of any rights. It is also a pretty meaningless word, because there is no universaly accepted definition of life in biology or anywhere else.
     
  2. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    ARe you alive or dead?
     
  3. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Because, as everyone with their various opinions arguing about this issue show everyday, each person is going to have their own subjective distinction on what a pregnancy means to them. There is no universal here. That's why it's not right for you to say that ALL people must carry their child to term because SOME people feel it's not right to have an abortion. I've never seen anyone argue that having an abortion is an easy decision that is not accompanied by guilt or shame or any other combination of emotions. What I've seen people arguing is that it's a choice that should be the mother's to make, because the only relevant feelings on that pregnancy belong to the mother, just like the womb and the fetus within it.


    I don't condone killing children. Show me where I've ever condoned killing children.....

    OOOOOOH, you're using emotionally loaded terms again. Ah well, okay, if you want to use your subjective determination of an unborn fetus as being "children", invoking images of already born children suddenly being murdered, so be it. I do not, and have never, bought into pro-lifer's inexhaustible efforts to guilt and shame people over to their side by convincing people they have to subscribe to the same set of beliefs as pro-lifers do.

    Basically, my point is, if referring to a fetus as a child or a baby floats your boat, go for it. Your deciding on what word to call it means diddly to the next person, just like when you accuse pro-choicers of calling it a fetus or zygote. Just realize that choosing emotionally loaded terminology in an effort to guilt people does not actually mean the things you are describing are as you describe them.
     
  4. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Just like pro-lifers do their best to connect a microscopic fetus to a walking talking breathing human child, in the hopes that those images will become one and the same and you can play up your guilt and shame angle with better efficiency.

    Pro-choicers have the more solid foundation because it's built entirely upon the mother being the arbiter of what occurs within her own body. In that respect, they are as unwavering as pro-lifers who feel a microscopic organism with no thoughts, feelings, and up until a certain point, brain activity at all, is more important than the person it is residing within.
     
  5. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    I am alive. Your point?
     
  6. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Be on the lookout for some kind of bizarre gotcha post because you said you were alive.
     
  7. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    You said,

    "no universaly accepted definition of life in biology or anywhere else."

    Just wondering if there is no accepted definition….what your status was….but your alive. What makes you alive? Do you have a life?
    Does a newborn have a life? Is the unborn alive? Does it have a life of its own or is its life his mothers?
     
  8. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Up until the point that a fetus can survive outside of the womb, it does not have it's own life. It's life is inexplicably tied to it's mother's. One day, in the future, meaning it hasn't happened yet, it will have progressed far enough along the developmental timeline that it can exist on it's own. But it's not that before it becomes that. That's like trying to tell me I'm a 30 year old man when I'm actually 5, just because someday I could potentially become a 30 year old man.
     
  9. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    So when can it survive out of the womb? Can a newborn survive without help?

    Where was Louise Brown conceived?

    Was she a part of her mother….at the time of conception?

    Did she have her own biological makeup or did she borrow her mothers?

    Did she have her own heart? Circulatory system? Did she have her own fingerprint? Lungs? What did she need her mother for?

    You are saying there is only one person in a pregnant womans body. What makes her pregnant?

    Cant wait to see your answers.
     
  10. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    A newborn can survive with assistance from anyone. A fetus can survive only through it's mother. Please tell me that you, as a mother and grandmother, understand the basic difference between born and unborn. If you don't, then we have to start over at square one, likely in the science thread, where we'll have a Pregnancy 101 refresher course.

    Did Louise Brown grow from conception to "birth" without being inside a womb? Could she have? Would she have survived had she not? Did she live in there completely independent of her mother, sort of like a roomate that keeps to themselves in their rooms and never comes out to say hi?

    How long after conception did the doctor's wait before implanting her within a womb? Did she hang out in a Pietre(I have no idea if I spelled that right and neither does Firefox spell check) dish for a month? Two months?

    Would Louise Brown have survived at all had she not been implanted in a womb?

    If you say no, then you have no argument and you can stop bringing up Louise Brown like she's some sort of game changer.

    Let me ask you this(I've asked before, but you've always dodged). If the fetus is completely independent of it's mother, and is not a part of her, why don't they just take those fetuses out instead of performing abortions? Seems like that would make pro-life people a lot happier....and the woman in question is no longer pregnant. Win-win for everyone.
     
  11. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    Because that life resides in another person, and that person is more important than the life that relies on it to survive.
     
  12. Jason Bourne

    Jason Bourne Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then why are early term C-sections common when there are fetal complications? By your logic that surgery would unnecessarily endanger the mother.
     
  13. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

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    But the mother consents to the surgery, so she is aware of the risks and prepared to take it.
     
  14. Jason Bourne

    Jason Bourne Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    She may be aware of the risks but that doesn't eliminate the risk. Now, you've said that the mother's life is more important then the unborn child. If that's so, why subject her to that risk? Because the unborn child's life is equally important as that of the mother. Why? Because they are both living human beings.
     
  15. Blasphemer

    Blasphemer Well-Known Member

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    Biologically speaking, we could even say that life began billions of years ago (not by conception at all, sperm and egg is also alive) and ends with cell necrosis. But that is not the definition used in this debate. When discussing abortion, usualy by erroneous "life" people mean "person" or "human being", meaning some organism DESERVING of a right to life. That is not a scientific, but a moral question.

    Having a life is irrelevant. An amoeba or a plant has a life. We are talking about having a RIGHT to life.

    I see no reason why humans without neocortex (includes early foetuses and braindead people) deserve any rights.
     
  16. Trinnity

    Trinnity Banned

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    In utero surgery is a good thing. What's the big deal?
     
  17. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nobody is "subjecting" her to that risk except herself. She's making a choice, which is exactly what pro-choicers want. Afterall, it's in the name. :)
     
  18. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    There is no big deal, except the ones a few pro-lifers are trying to invent in this thread.
     
  19. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    ahh, that would be the parasite argument, correct?
     
  20. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    just the pro-murder crowd refusing to admit that it was a baby which had the surgery
     
  21. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    and you are a living breathing hypocricy. You are here because your mommy did not kill you yet you want to kill other babies. Why is that? Are you superior to other children and more deserving of life? You speak of choice but do not give a choice to the child. You just want to exterminate them. How can you sleep at night? Ohh Oooh, I know, because the woman is not "inconvenienced or burdened" with the nasty creepy child she created. I get it
     
  22. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    A fetus getting surgery that it's mother has consented to is not an argument against abortion. I'm honestly baffled why you think it is.
     
  23. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    you can't be a mother of a "fetus"

    you are a mother of a child
     
  24. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    You can't be a mother of a fetus?

    That's a new one...
     
  25. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    how many times have you asked a pregnant woman how the fetus is doing? Has she seen the fetus in an ultrasound? Has she heard the heartbeat of the fetus? Has she felt the fetus kick?

    please spare me your nonsense. That's a human BABY in the womb. Just because you support the killing of those babies you think changing the name of a pile of crap and calling it pudding makes it smell better......................you have a lot to learn
     

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