WSJ: Trump colluding with Ukraine

Amusing how Trump loyalists feel a need to repeat Trump's lies over and over... Even when they have nothing to do with the matter being discussed It's as if they were afraid of forgetting the fantasies they have been instructed to believe.

On the other hand.... what can they do? It's what they hear all day long on wingnut media. Not like you would expect them to know... facts... or anything of the kind.

 

What is not credible is your hypocrisy. I slam both sides for their dirty deeds - this is what objective people do.

 

Wrong! What objective people do is objectively look at the facts and slam the side that the facts lay blame on. Objective people do not derail a thread containing facts about one of the sides in an effort to change the subject. I am well aware of Hillary's "dirty deeds". I could add more. And more credible ones than the ones you ascribe to her. But she is irrelevant. She's not the President and is unlikely to ever run for any office again. Trump is the President, and very relevant. And the topic of this thread. If you have an objective comment on that, I'd willing to hear it.

 

Oh , the Russian collusian wasn't a hoax ? And you are gonna tell me about facts ?

 

I disagree with your claim that the dirty deeds of others who have held high office - is not at issue. If the system is corrupt - and clearly this is the case - this effects how one should view the Russiagate witch hunt - and this new affair.

To be honest I have not looked into "Ukrainegate" enough to form an opinion. What I will not do is jump on some bandwagon - as you did in the Russiagate affair - and on the Cortez/Pipeline issue - on the basis of blind partisan bias.

I may well side with you on this Ukraine issue - but, if I do so, it will be on the basis of legitimate arguments.

 

Works for one. Works for all.

Yup, there isn't whole lot you can say. Maybe you should re-think your priorities. You're backing a loser, and you know it.

Trump supporters on this thread never go into the specifics of the call's transcript or the whistleblower's complaint. They use various vague, outdated characterizations, pretend the call was innocent, and try desperately to change the subject, but they dare not venture into the substance of the alleged impeachment charges against Trump.

 

You are trying desperately to change the subject. It is all you can do because you know your boy is guilty as hell.

That is why you can't defend him.

Trump knows it, too. That explains why he is losing his mind. The other day he accused certain White House staffers of being spies, guilty of treason, and threatened them with death.

You need to re-think your priorities. You are backing the wrong horse.

 

I don't back Trump - I hate the guy. I back the rule of law, founding principles, and principles of justice .. and not engaging in fallacious gibberish as justification for law --- Blue is just as guilty as Red with respect to leading us down the garden path to a quazi totalitarian police state complete with a kangarooland justice system and Orwellian propaganda ministries.

I would welcome Trumps impeachment other than the fact that this would mean that Pence would be President - a goblin of the highest order - so long as there is legitimate grounds in keeping with the principles of justice.

 

Quit building strawmen and pretending that doing so constitutes rational thought.

 

"Not an issue"??? What are you talking about? I said they're not the topic of this thread. Not that they're not an issue.

Let me know if you have anything of interest to contribute to what I did say. Not so much interested in your comments about what I did not say. I don't expect you to because one thing I know is that posters fabricate strawman arguments like you do when they have run out of real arguments.

 

Trumpets know their boy is guilty as hell. How do we know that?

Posts 599, 602, and 608 deal directly with the impeachment charges against Trump. Trumpets have ignored 100% of the facts contained in those three posts.

 

Take the logic of Graham and Sekulow out of this context and put it in an entirely different one. If someone comes up to you on the street, points a gun at you and says, "Give me all your money!" then, under Graham's conceit, you aren't being robbed. In order for it to be an actual robbery, the man pointing the gun has to say: "Give me all your money. This is a robbery."

Makes zero sense, right? You know what's happening even if the guy doesn't declare that he is using the threat of possible violence to separate you from your money. Why? Because, well, you just know. The human brain is able to look at a series of related inputs -- gun, demand for money, agitation -- and connect the dots: I am being robbed.

 

My friend, you are being sidetracked. Trumpets don't want you talking about the possible impeachment of trump.

 

And they will continue to do so every time we mention it. The only possible response is, as I said above: that is not the topic! Or, as I like to put it: "Who's Hillary"? That one drives them up the wall.

 

Business Insider reports, "Notes from a phone call that President Donald Trump had with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on July 25 confirm reports that Trump repeatedly pressed Zelensky to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden after discussing military aid to Ukraine."

Trump had ordered the US to withhold a nearly $400 million military-aid package to Ukraine days before the phone call.

Business Insider continued, "Early in the July 25 call, Trump reminded Zelensky that "we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time. Much more than the European countries are doing."

"Zelensky agreed, telling Trump he was "absolutely right." Zelensky went on to thank Trump for "your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps. Specifically, we're almost ready to buy more javelins from the United States for defense purposes."

"Trump then responded, "I would like you to do us a favor though, because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike ... I guess you have one of your wealthy people ... The server, they say Ukraine has it."

The reference to a 2016 election conspiracy was a diversion. It is pure Trumpian. He is never direct. He expects people to understand what he really wants.

Then Trump finally got to the point.

"I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it," Trump said, according to the notes. "Whatever you can do, it's very important that you do it if that's possible."

"There's a lot of talk about [former vice president Joe Biden's] son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it ... It sounds horrible to me."

"A lot of people" is always a reference to himself. In this case, more misdirection. Pure Trumpian.

It doesn't take genius to figure out that A) Trump was asking a foreign power to intervene in our Presidential election on his behalf. B) Trump was bribing the foreign power. C) By mentioning the Attorney General, Trump intends to use the Department of Justice for his political benefit.

By the way, those all fit the definition of " Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."

This source provided info for this report. https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-zelensky-ukraine-call-transcript-quid-pro-quo-biden-2019-9

 

It drives some people up the wall because it shows there is no principle behind this fake outrage. What's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander, and all of that.

I've accepted that aspect from my friends on the left long enough to say that it doesn't surprise me. See, there are still people out there who think that debate between left and right is even possible, and logic is crucial to debate. Logic is inherently about consistency. The lack of consistent beliefs is difficult for many to understand.

For my friends on the right, I will simply say that there is still consistency to be found, but you have to stop listening to lips and fingers flapping, and look at behavior. There is a consistency to be found in behavior, and that is what you look for.

For example, I recently had a conversation with a female friend who is with a.... not a nice guy. In fact, he's quite the *******. She wanted to know why he's an *******. Well, I told her that girls like *******s, and then laid down the very good reasons why women prefer *******s over nice guys.

She couldn't argue with my logic because I was pointing to her behavior, rather than what she was saying.

 

"Lack of patriotism" is criminal?

 

It drives people up the wall because it thwarts their attempt to change the subject. To give an example: I doubt there are any Democrats on the left who give a crap about Hillary at this point. But you guys need a cult-like following for her, similar to Trump, which doesn't exist. If there were evidence against Hillary that were even a minuscule portion of that which there is against Trump, she would be in jail. And I (and most left wingers on this forum) wouldn't give a crap!

 

I have asked this question countless times on various threads.

Sandy Shanks said: ↑
As vice-president? How did he do that? Biden didn't have the authority.

What did Hunter Biden do wrong?

What did Joe Biden do wrong?

Nothing from Trump's supporters, although some gave the vice-president powers Biden did not have, such as withholding funds authorized by Congress. Others tried desperately to change the subject.

Trump asked Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy to work with the attorney general to investigate Biden in a July call in which Trump also reminded the Ukrainian leader how much financial support the U.S. provides, according to a written account of the call and a whistleblower complaint the White House released to Congress Wednesday. The whistleblower complaint, declassified for the public Thursday, provided even more damaging evidence of the president's efforts to harm Biden.

Trump and his allies on the Hill have sought to turn the Ukraine issue on Biden, who is leading or running second in most polls for the Democratic nomination. There has been no evidence of wrongdoing by Biden or his son, Hunter, who served on the board of a Ukrainian company that at one point was under investigation by a Ukrainian prosecutor.

https://www.usnews.com/news/electio.../2020-dems-slow-to-come-to-joe-bidens-defense

So, we can all agree. Trump and his allies are wrong. The Bidens did nothing wrong.

 

Trump wants to know who the whistleblower is, and the people who gave the person information are "close to a spy." "You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? With spies and treason, right? We used to handle them a little differently than we do now." In the "old days" spies were shot.

Asked Monday whether he knows the whistleblower's identity, Trump replied, "We're trying to find out," A whistleblower's identity is protected by law, the Whistleblower Protection Act. President Trump is attempting to intimidate future whistleblowers. He considers them a threat to his regime.

"His lies were made in perhaps the most blatant and sinister manner ever seen in the great Chamber. He wrote down and read terrible things, then said it was from the mouth of the President of the United States," Trump tweeted, forgetting that his appointee, I.C.I.G. Michael Atkinson deemed the whistleblower complaint "credible" and "most urgent." He also forgot that the phone conversation between himself and President Zelensky was provided by the White House as was the whistleblower's complaint itself. That should be warning to Trump, but it goes right over his head.

Lawyers for the whistleblower sent a letter to the acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire on Saturday. It stated:

"The purpose of this letter is to formally notify you of serious concerns we have regarding our client's personal safety," the letter says, adding that recent comments by Trump are reason for "heightened" concern.

"The events of the past week have heightened our concerns that our client's identity will be disclosed publicly and that, as a result, our client will be put in harm's way."

This is our President speaking.

I want to meet not only my accuser, who presented SECOND & THIRD HAND INFORMATION, but also the person who illegally gave this information, which was largely incorrect, to the 'Whistleblower. Was this person SPYING on the U.S. President? Big Consequences!

Please note, as mentioned, Trump never deals with the allegations directly. If he says something was a lie or the whistleblower got it wrong, he never explains what he is talking about. That alone is a sure sign of guilt.

From a mental standpoint, is Trump okay?

 

The senate won't convict, all this is a waste of time and is going nowhere.

 

Eh, let the kiddies have their fun. It keeps Pelosi too busy to pass nonsense legislation.

 

Trump's supporters often complain that those who are critical of Trump's performance are trying to do an end run around the 2016 election. That Trump's detractors are attempting a coup, the removal of a duly elected President. Ignoring the absurdity of that assertion for the moment, have they ever considered that Trump may be responsible for the multitude of questions regarding his competence?

Is Trump doing exactly what Putin wants him to do? That is a very good question considering the fact that the White House has been shackled during the 33 months Trump has sat in the Oval Office. Despite his party having control of both the House and Senate for the first two years of his Presidency, Trump has accomplished little or nothing. He has moved from controversy and scandal to new controversies and scandals throughout his entire administration.

He is the least popular President in modern American history, his staff has an historical turnover rate and is now filled with sycophants, and there are even questions about his mental stability.

Trump's close ties with Netanyahu while unilaterally proclaiming Jerusalem the capital of Israel has removed the U.S. from Middle East talks because the Arab republics do not trust him. Neither do Great Britain or France because Trump is unpredictable and unreliable. The U.S. has been replaced by Russia.

Trump removed the U.S. from the Paris Accord to which there are 197 signatories.

Because it was signed during the Obama administration, Trump removed the U.S. from the JCPOA which permanently barred Iran from making a nuke. He has been urging the Iranian leaders to agree to talks for a new agreement that permanently bars Iran from making a nuke. In the meantime, Iran has followed Trump's example and is in violation of the JCPOA. Our allies are trying desperately to save the agreement. Trump is threatening our allies' for their intentions.

Trump has removed the U.S. from lucrative trade agreements, TPP, NAFTA, and has not signed one major trade agreement.

Much to Putin's delight, Trump has weakened NATO with his constant jabs at our NATO partners. The recent G-7 conference went nearly as bad as last year's G-7 conference and there was no common statement of cooperation.

Trump has threatened the vibrant American economy. Because of his trade war with China, even he is concerned about a possible recession as consumer confidence is dropping along with the manufacturing index. Trump's harsh tariffs cause inflation, and inflation causes recession. To illustrate all of this, the stock market has been treading water since January 2018. On Jan. 29, 2018, the Dow stood at 26,439. Right now the Dow is at 26,917.A gain of only 478 points in 20 months. It was below Jan. 2018 figure for most of August due to Trump's tweets.

Questions about Trump's mental acuity have surfaced recently. Using a five day old NWS in predicting a hurricane's path Trump declared that Alabama "will most likely be hit (much) harder than anticipated." Everyone not named Trump knew the hurricane was going to turn north, missing Alabama by hundreds of miles. For a solid week Trump insisted that his faulty weather forecast was accurate.

When that died out Trump said he was totally responsible for inviting the terrorist sponsors of Al Qaeda to a meeting at Camp David five days before the 9/11 anniversary.

One day after Robert Mueller appeared before Congress to provide testimony regarding Russian intervention in our 2016 election on his behalf, Trump called the president of Ukraine to ask him to intervene in our 2020 election on his behalf!

Is Trump doing exactly what Putin wants him to do? Should he be removed from office? The reader can decide.

 

It is hoped those who should read the above post, Trump's supporters, will do so and with great concern. However, I fear they will not. Their main excuse will be they are too busy to take three minutes to read the post. The real reason, however, is when it comes to Trump, they try to avoid reality. Others will use an unsaid excuse. Since they have shown inability to defend Trump, what is the point of reading the realistic post that illustrates Trump's incompetence?

I hope I am wrong about this.

Perhaps it is time to reassess their priorities. Well, Trump's supporters don't want to think about that, either.

 

Trump is a traitor. He’s been undermining nato and siding with Russia against out own intel agencies since he’s been in office.
Benedict Trump and Moscow Mitch. The Republican Party has joined forces with third world dictators to stay in power.