Yes, human life is worthless

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by MegadethFan, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Emotional worth is subjective, sure but worth, as a word and concept is objective. To quantify it, is a subjective process, but that does not mean the concept is.

    See below.

    LOL You seem to be over-analyzing what amounts to a simple description of a straight forward principle. By the equal consideration principle I just described, you take this principle and apply it to all transactions and situations. In the case of abortion one must consider the interests of the mother and the fetus. The fetus has none so only the mother's need be considered. End of story.

    No, an interest requires self-awareness and a level of consciousness by which the fetus recognizes it is alive, is an autonomous entity and thus has a comprehension and a stake in its existence. This occurs after birth.

    LOL! A random 'life-couch' website is not medical proof. Please try again.
     
  2. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by "same mindset"? The Inquisitors thought human life was sacred and they still brutalized people. Does this mean all Catholics are a threat to others? Of course not. Please dont make stupid and childish references to nazis and other "badies", because it doesnt show anything except a lack of sincerity and understanding in this discussion on your part.

    Why is it beyond my understanding? Better yet, why is God right with such a perspective?

    That's just false. Some fetuses are so debilitated all the offer is grief for the family, cost for the state and myriad of other hindrances.

    Ok, but why do you feel sorry for me? Its all well and good to oppose me, I entirely respect that - but its not enough to simple say you disagree. You need to show why I am wrong, and more importantly, why you are right.

    When you make incredibly presumptive and ignorant statements like "that concept is way beyond your understanding" it shows you either cannot actually defend your position, or you are so insincere you dont ever intent to. Either way, if your view is of this nature, you might as well leave, since you have nothing to contribute.
     
  3. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    How's that?

    Opinions can still be objectively based. If you believe "oh its jsut my opinion" then you are saying you dont think there is any right or wrong in an external sense.

    Sure but what would stop anyone from shooting anyone else is the fact that the all have individual interests in being alive, and thus, in not being shot. Consequently, the collective would attempt to maintain no one be shot and dispatch anyone who tried to preserve the greater number of interests, all being equal.
     
  4. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Well not really. Some have contended self-awareness is obtained around 3 weeks or so after birth.

    Well, there are a number of issues at play here; autonomy of individuals, rights of the father/other carers who assist in providing for the baby etc etc. But to cut a long story short, I would argue one should oppose infanticide since one runs the risk of killing a baby that has an interest in being alive. Infanticide is morally acceptable in and of itself immediately after birth, but the risk seems quite high to permit it in an serious or extensive form.

    None given its the woman's body. Perhaps if there was some overriding precedent or condition - she agreed to have the baby with the father, for example.

    Sure, but ultimately its the woman's body it inhabits and thus its only her interest that need to be considered.
     
  5. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    "planted in their hearts"? LOL!

    Funny how despite all this lifers still cant win the most basic of ethics debates. They have entire institutions, organizations and communities standing on thousands of years and hundreds of thousands of texts all apparently dedicated to the lifer position - and its all unraveled in the space of one OP on a website.
     
  6. SGTKPF

    SGTKPF New Member

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    Wow. This post was equal parts evil and asinine. The evil of saying that the lives of the mentally disabled have no value is self-evident. But the true error of this post is in its astounding stupidity. While accusing others of making an arbitrary reason for the value of human life and not backing it up, the author proceeds to... make an arbitrary reason for the value of human life and not back it up. Utter stupidity. By the same reasoning the life of the sleeping has no value, since you can not desire to live while unconscious. But even setting aside that stupidity, human life is valuable because it is irreplacable. Once a life is extinguished, it can not be brought back. This is why an original Van Gogh is more valuable then any mass produced corporate pictures. Furthermore, not desiring something does not mean it has no value. A candy bar has value to a shopowner, even if he does not desire that candy. This is why I can not steal that candy bar. Again, this post was so imbecilic it makes any thinking person's head hurt.
     
  7. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    No, it isnt self-evident in the slightest. Please explain why what I said was wrong.

    Please point out where an arbitrary value judgment was made.

    Well no, their life is still worth protecting/entitled to it because they have a pre-existing interest. One goes to sleep with the interest of awaking. Thus killing them while asleep would violate that interest.

    Which doesnt actually exist - you just want it to, but anyway...

    So you are saiyng all forms of existence are valuable due to their being "irreplaceable"? This would render virtually anything on the earth untouchable by way of damage.

    But he does desire the candy - he desires it as a product to sell.

    Seems you have not understood what I have said in the slightest.
     
  8. SpaceCricket79

    SpaceCricket79 New Member Past Donor

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    No it's purely subjective. A dollar bill only has worth because society decides that it does - if we didn't, it would be just a piece of paper.

    Either provide me evidence that this principle is factually correct or admit defeat - stating that this principle is right does not make it so just because you say it does.

    See above. Provide proof that life's worth is dependent on whether or not it is capable in it's current state of expressing an interest in living.

    There's plenty of medical evidence available if you want to find it. I'd think it'd be common sense however. Read "The Relaxation Response" if you want to learn more - negativity brings stress and attitudes which are harmful to mental, and physical health.
     
  9. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Looks like my point flew over your head. Of course if you were correct in saying all worth is entirely subjective, this would render the lifer position illegitimate as well, since the value of life is "subjective".

    I have given you the evidence repeatedly. Go back and read the equal considerations principle. A concise collection of the entire view point can be found here also:
    http://www.politicalforum.com/debates-contests/233188-abortion-morally-acceptable.html

    We should consider the interests of others. If a fetus has none, then there is nothing to consider on its behalf.

    I want you to find it because its your burden of proof.

    Could you site the book (ie pages) that corroborate your claim? You actually seemed to have conflated a rejection of the worth of human life with a feeling that life is not worth living in any case, or something similar. Again, a direct sitation is needed for clarification, since I find it impossible to see how a rejection of the intrinsic value of human life leads to a depressed world view.
     
  10. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    By studying nature you find every living thing has an interest in staying alive so it is part of nature and not some human construct. If life is valuable to all living things by the sheer evidence that they fight to stay alive then life must have a value to all living things whether they can read your thread or not.


    People that believe like you do are a problem and the reason life is devalued and abused throughout history. If you think man can decide which life is valuable or not, then anything goes since man has an infinite capability of rationalizing anything.

    What does that leave you? If you do not wish to go down the path of someone like Hitler or Mao then you have to have a starting point and for me that is "all life is sacred" and taking any life, whether man or animal, has to have a darned good reason. Some good reasons are those that protect your own rights, like the right to life or survival.
     
  11. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    What part?

    You are seriously saying everything that is alive has consciousness, self-awareness, a concept of past, present and future and an identification of itself as autonomous entity?

    Wrong. An interest to live/be alive is the result of mental function, requiring mental capacities. The only thing the majority of livign creatures have is a desure to avoid pain - this is not the same thing.

    Why?

    How so?

    Well no. People who think human life is valuable still decide who is more valuable than others., For example,most people decide a terrorist has a very limited value on their life because they are a threat to others. This has always been the case in war, and in many legal proceedings.
    It is impossible to rationalize anything with the principle I advocate.

    But you still think its ok. Yes we could start with the idea life is sacred, but its false, so it will not do. Instead we should start with the position all INTERESTS are worth considering. From there we can quickly dismiss the designs of the Maos and Hitlers of this world.

    There is no point protecting the life of a creature that does not have an interest in being alive. Its pointless and absurd. Its liking buying a pig a car for its birthday - or giving it the vote.
     
  12. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Basically you are saying that everything that does not ascribe to your view is worthless and does not deserve to live. You have made yourself equivalent to the Creator. Such arrogance.
     
  13. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    hahaha hilarious. Nice to see you are incapable of responding to ANY of my points. As for comment, no I believe anything anyone says should be considered. I beleive anyone who has an interest in anything ought to have that interest considered. I think the concept of the creator is silly, so no I dont find myself its equivalent - I find myself, and all other rational thinkers, above it.
     
  14. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is apparent you don't even understand to my response and answer with nonsense questions. There is not enough time in the day to respond to people like you.
     
  15. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    "Dont understand to my response"? I'll leave you to figure out whatever you're trying to say and then I'll respond.

    Obviously not enough English language skills either. :roll:
     
  16. PropagandaMachine

    PropagandaMachine New Member

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    Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I agree with you on this particular issue, just want to fail proof the floodgates against these eejits.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is very much like the Catholic concept of ensoulment ! Shortly after the sperm hits the egg .. the soul fairy comes.
     
  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The pro choice crowd are not the ones trying to make laws that infringe upon the rights of women.

    The onus is on the lifers to make this case.

    So fancy pants .. why don't you tell us when you think a living human exists and why. Hopefully with something better than the "soul fairy"
     
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no more or less intrinsic value in human life than any other kind of life that can be proven.

    The value of a living human exists simply because living humans do not wish to be killed.

    The moral aspect comes through the social contract.

    If one wishes to live in a society where living humans are not allowed to randomly kill each other .. then one has a moral obligation not to randomly kill living humans.

    The Golden rule "do unto others as you would have them do to you"

    A conception .. a living human does not exist according to science and medicine. So the moral obligation does not apply.
     
  20. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Better yet, he should answer what should be the easiest question - why is human life valuable in and of itself?
     
  21. Sean Michael

    Sean Michael New Member

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    There is no mental function with al life that tries to stay alive. Even germs adapt and become immune to that which would have killed them before. As do plants and all manner of non-intelligent life. These things do not have pain receptors they feel no pain, yet they strive to stay alive.
    I beleive all human life is sacred even those who would be considered terrorists and tyrants. I completely disagree with the death penalty and that all human life should be treated as sacred.
     
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sacred is a loaded word. In any case .. do you think a sperm cell is sacred ?
     
  23. zimo

    zimo New Member

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    With all their rapid movements, they must be.
     
  24. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Which means it does not consciously try to stay alive.

    Correct but they do not have a conscious and mental interest in being alive - just impulsive characteristics that make their existence persist.

    WHY?

    Again, why do you believe this?
     
  25. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    Just as I predicted not ONE lifer on this thread could explain why all human life is so especially valuable.
     

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