Except you missed one small detail. Martin was obviously not looking to break into anyone's home. He went to a convenience store to get Skittles and a soda. But I guess being black and walking down the street is a crime, which deserves one to be followed. And to be quite honest, being a person who supports gun ownership, I would not want someone as reckless as Zimmerman around in any of those situations you describe. He broke so many rules, it's stupid.
How do you know martin's intentions? More importantly how would Zimmerman know Martin's intentions? What are the laws that Zimmerman broke?
Let's see- do you seriously think a kid who was visiting his father was out looking for Zimmerman for a fight? Really? Also, I never said Zimmerman broke any laws. He did, however, break the rules of neighborhood watch. That rule is- notify police if you see something suspicious, do not engage. Obviously, we can see from the results of this case why that is a rule. One life was ended, and another ruined. Let me make this perfectly clear- Zimmerman may very well have had to defend himself with deadly force once the situation went as far as it did. However, had he simply made the call to the police and let them do their job, we would not be having this conversation right now. As is stands, two lives have been destroyed forever. The whole situation is unbelievably sad.
he was LIVING with his father after being suspended from school. Do I think this kid is likley to be one who would attack someone? By the evidence presnted I think this is extremely likley and without doubt he DID attack Zimmerman Please print the exact rules of the watch program that Zimmerman was a member of and acting under the auspices of at the time?
Thank you for your reply, It is unknown if Martin was or was not looking to break into someones home. Petty crimes and burglaries are often crimes of opportunity. I have known persons that have committed various crimes and theft and rarely were they orchestrated or planned. Remember, I didn't claim that Martin was casing houses, you claimed that he was in fact not. Zimmerman said to the dispatcher that Martin was 'looking around' in the dark without having a purposeful destination. It isn't required for Martin to have committed any crime in order to be followed or deemed suspicious. Martin has no legal or Constitutional right to not be observed or suspected of being suspicious. Its disingenuous to say that you wouldnt have wanted Zimmerman as a gun carrying watchman while your family was being raped or mugged. Zimmerman broke no rules and broke no laws that he was subject to. You incumber Zimmerman with laws and rules that don't exist. Respectfully, Thanks again.
Thank you for your post, You said, "However, had he simply made the call to the police and let them do their job, we would not be having this conversation right now.". This is a logical fallacy called 'Affirming the Consequent". in this statement you are making two claims. One, Martin is dead. And two, Zimmerman's bares responsibility for that death. Since the first claim is true you believe that claim 2 is true also. Let me offer a counter example to illustrate. "However, if Martin had simply stayed home, we would not be having this conversation right now." As you can see this statement doesn't pass the smell test.Again, there aretwo claims here. One, Martin is dead. And two, Martin bares responsibility for that death. Since the first claim is true I believe that claim 2 is true also. While literally true, the statement isn't offered literally but carries an accusation of guilt. The statement is self proving. For it to be valid it is required that an external element be weighed against it. In this case my statement would be valid if Martin knew that he would likely be killed if he walked out the door by some crazed racist with a gun. Thus, Zimmerman would have to break a law or be guilty of some unreasonable actions that caused Martins death. There is no proof that Zimmerman did anything but drive around and see some young man walking behind homes in the dark and follow him some 150 foot around a corner to look for where he went. How convenient it is to have the luxury of levying criticism against a watchman volunteering for free in watching over his neighbors and their children. Again, in the absence of known facts I will side with the volunteer, the benefactor, the homeowner, the taxpayer, the do'er and the patriot. People clamor for Civil Rights while casting aside any obligations of civic duty. Civil rights is something you GET. Civic duty is something that COST you. Zimmerman is a volunteer, a taxpayer, a defender of the homeless, a mentor to children, a homeowner, a voter and a watchman. Thanks again.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...314_1_orlando-police-block-captains-zimmerman Zimmerman was an irresponsible gun owner IMO. And as a gun owner, that pisses me off.
@LeeKholer2, thank you for your civil reply. Your statements in BOLD. We don't know everything that happened in the 13 minutes that passed between the time Zimmerman, 28, called police and a paramedic pronounced 17-year-old Trayvon Martin dead. Yet you accuse Zimmerman of impropriety without knowing all of the facts. In the absence of facts one should err to innocence or to neutrality and not to guilt. All three of those actions are strongly discouraged by the National Sheriffs' Association, which oversees about 20,000 Neighborhood Watch programs. "There is no reason in the world to carry a gun for Neighborhood Watch," said Chris Tutko, a retired police chief who now directs Neighborhood Watch for the sheriffs' association. "It gets people more into trouble than out of it." A manual published by the association for its "USAonWatch" program makes that very clear. "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles," the manual states. "Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous." "The sheriffs' association manual lists the type of suspicious activity that should be reported to police. Among the examples: "Someone peering into car windows" and "broken doors or windows."" That's a prudent step for any neighborhood. In fact, Neighborhood Watches are popular in Central Florida. In Orlando alone, there are 905 block captains listed with Orlando police. Some groups are highly organized and walk their neighborhoods in scheduled patrols. More often, though, neighbors just get acquainted with one another, exchange phone numbers and learn to report anything out of the ordinary that they notice as they move through life's predictable moments: taking out the garbage, walking the dog or getting the mail. That's a prudent step for any neighborhood. In fact, Neighborhood Watches are popular in Central Florida. In Orlando alone, there are 905 block captains listed with Orlando police. The above citations are what is called "Appeal to Authority". Let me offer a counter an analogy to make this point. You yourself are a gun owner. According to many persons, groups, studies and proofs you are an irresponsible fool for possessing guns! Your gun ownership is dangerous to you, your family and your community. Your guns are simply waiting for an opportunity to kill and mame. You are a reckless Barney Fife idiot(according to many, not me). Its irrelevant that you have the right to bare arms per the Constitution and by State Law. You should be subject to the whims, opinions and authority of Bill Mahar, Oprah Winfrey, Planned Parenthood and the Left Wing Media. They have published articles, guides and studies for you to follow and you have stupidly disobeyed them all! Oprah Winfrey clearly said that you shouldn't have guns and you failed to heed her authority. Zimmerman had no obligation to listen to any guide, non authority or any third person opinion. Those things are subordinate and inferior to Zimmermans legal and Constitutional Rights. Zimmerman is the barer of what defines his rational for carrying a gun and no one else outside the lawmaking apparatus. Even the basis for Zimmerman's initial phone call is questionable. Nowhere does it list walking while black, which is all Trayvon appeared to be doing as he made his way back to the house of his dad's fiancée after a candy run to 7-Eleven. Trayvon was armed only with a package of Skittles in his pocket. You claim that it appeared that Martin wasn't doing anything that warranted suspicion? Were you there? Do you have a video tape? An eye witness account? How can you make such a claim from something that you have zero knowledge/information? All we have is Zimmerman's real time statements while on the phone to dispatch. And remember, Zimmerman doesn't know at that time that he is going to involved in a fist fight and shooting yet. He said, "This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about." "He was just staring......looking at all the houses." "Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is." Again, as a concerned citizen of this country, Zimmerman has the right to define whom he perceives as suspicious and isn't constrained by the opinions of others after the fact, sitting on their couch and privy to the outcome and facts of the case. It was unknown to Zimmerman if Martin was armed or not. You propose that Zimmerman should have known that Martin was both a 'child' and unarmed and thus acted accordingly. If only if someone would hand Zimmerman a manilla folder with a full background check moments before he sees suspicious people in his complex! That would be nice. You look over at a group of teenagers at night walking down the road and just at that time some guy pops out of the bushes telling you the fact that those boys were at a Bible study and were walking home to do homework. At least one neighbor told the Sentinel that young black men were suspected in recent neighborhood crimes. Yet nothing so far, at least suggests that Zimmerman had reason to think Trayvon was committing a crime. It isnt required for Martin to be committing a crime to warrant suspicions from a watchman. That's why they watch. You're proposing that Watchman only watch actual crimes in progress, that's a bit naive. Respectfully, thanks again.
Zimmerman is a busy body. I have one in my neighborhood too. She drives all of us batty. One day she's gonna hurt someone too. We do not know exactly how the altercation went down- the main eye witness is dead. With that said- he was FOLLOWED and probably scared out of his mind. It's a no brainer who was at fault in this tragic situation. I will not hide behind laws and "facts" just to make an immoral argument moral and illogical argument logical.
Do you call sitting on top of somebody and doing a "ground and pound" on them with 2 fists "minding his own business" ? I don't. Neither did the trial jury, and most people in America. "Minor" and "black" have nothing to do with it. PS - as a licensed security guard myself, I stopped 2 Muslim women wearing faced veils, and trying to get into a secured building with photo ID badges. They wound up going to jail.
Muslim AmericanWoman, thank you for your reply. Your accusation that Zimmerman assumes that there was no need for a neighborhood watchman. There were a number of recent burglaries in the complex along with some 400 other calls to 911 over the last 12 months. There was a tangible crime presence in the complex to the extent that its residents desired a watchman and held meetings as a result. Zimmerman watched other peoples homes and their children for free and at his own time, expense and peril. And the thanks he gets is being called a 'busy body'. I myself have volunteered for various things for years also. Am I a 'busy body'? Ive worked on elderly women's homes while their 50 year old sons slept in the very house I was working on. In the eyes of the son I was in fact a 'busy body', a meddler and an inconvenient presence. Of course the old lady that I was helping seen it differently. You say that you have a busy body neighbor? I would like to hear here version of the story. My guess is that she is the volunteering taking care of business while you yourself do not. Odd, people that are messy housekeepers accuse others of being 'neat freaks'. You said, "We do not know exactly how the altercation went down- the main eye witness is dead". You have just stated that you dont know what happened but Zimmerman must be guilty! Lastly you said, "I will not hide behind laws and "facts" just to make an immoral argument moral and illogical argument logical.". Okay. Respectfully,
Nope. My busy body neighbor is a drunk who flirts with all the husbands on the block- mine included. She is always wondering everyone's business- but you can hear her husband screaming in their house, throwing things and the police get to visit there from time to time. As for me- my family - we are boringly quiet and I volunteer my butt off- if you must know.
In the middle of the night, in a neighborhood where even the neighborhood watch doesn't know who you are. Those neighbors are glad the kid was followed.... and they should be. zzz... rules mean nothing... what matters are laws. He broke none. Trayvon did.
These goofs know everything. They know Trayvon was just an innocent child walking home with his cute little candy whistling Christian hymns. And they know Zimmerman is a gun-toting racist out looking for yet another black kid to brutally murder.
"Visiting" ? lol... This suspended "no_limit_n***er, who tweeted about his fights and drugs, tweeted about guns, who was kicked out of his own house as a minor.... wasn't just "visiting his father". It's the only place he could stay.
Yeah, ok.... this minor, out in the middle of the night, was so "scared" that he hid behind bushes instead of going home where he belonged. Instead of waiting to see who was harmlessly watching him, until he could confront the guy and jump him.
Thank you for your reply, and thank you for your volunteerism. But then again, you yourself are a busy body as well according to someone watching you from a distance. In other words, its an easy accusation to call someone a busy body that is volunteering. Respectfully,
Actually they got themselves arrested. By lying to the police. They learned a lesson. Never lie to the police, especially when everything you're lying about has been recorded on video. As for the hijabs ? This is America. Get rid of them.
Great point. There are multitudes of men across this land that find themselves living a life that doesnt lend itself to stable employment or residency for whatever reason. And once a man burns to ashes any hopes of gaining traction in this land of unequaled opportunity and rendered his dreams non effect, what options does such a man have? They have the 'Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs' that is called government housing! They themselves do not usually qualify but there are 1,000 women with children in that housing project. And everyone of those apartment units has a woman to have 'relations' with, a TV to watch, food stamps to eat, a bed and a couch. And all a man has to do is 'hook up' with one and BINGO! Such a man can live into perpetuity with such a setup without ever working a single minute. Ive been in the emergency services for some 30 years. This isn't a possibility, its the norm. Is this an accusation against the man himself? No, its an accusation against the system that we have. As for Martin, it appears that he was just about out of bridges. Martin admittedly had various victims of his actions. There is other evidence that suggests that he had other victims as well. And that is just what we know of. I would like to hear their opinion on Martin and their perspective. Nonetheless, by Martins own actions and statements its clear that Martin was on a course to lead a life of victimization of others. Oh how I wished we could somehow be privy to that list and see the very faces of those victimized woman, children and property owners. Thanks for listening,
So at age 17 you had your complete wits about you and behaved like a 40 year old adult say- might behave? lol - - - Updated - - - This is America so wear what [MENTION=54036]protectionist[/MENTION] says you must wear? Sounds like a dictatorship to me! hahahahahahahahahahahaha
You lost me. - - - Updated - - - This thread is full of people blaming the victim. Blaming an underage victime who is dead and cannot defend himself. Shame.
40 yr old ? You have to be 40 to know how to leave the scene if you are so "scared" ? lol.... Stop making excuses for him. He hung out, in the dark, instead of leaving the scene... attacked a man and paid the price. Pretending he was the Messiah Obama Jr does nothing for him, or your cred. We already know what the witnesses saw. And the kid is still dead. Story over. All you fauxraged Trayhuggers miss him more than his own family.
This statement does bring up an interesting phenomenon. Where I live we are quite happy to see criminals be vacated from our community. You see, the guy that breaks into our homes or sells our kids drugs we want removed and placed somewhere else! But not everyone feels that way. Some people are advocates of those that prostitute their children and who burglarize their homes. They are very irate when law enforcement shows up and hauls them off. What weird wild world we live in. Respectfully,
