You *do* realize that surgery is arranged for ahead of time, right? Also, informed consent is not "counselling". Informed consent is being made aware of risks, alternatives etc. Counselling is sitting down with a counsellor and talking about your feelings, etc.
I doubt there is any state that does not require that a knowledge- based informed consent form be signed before any medical procedure be performed or a prescription drug be sold. that includes a description of what is being done, and possible risks or complications. there is no enforceable contract to proceed without that form being signed. You can think of that as a universal minimum one way "consultation'. I can't imagine any invasive medical procedure performed by a doctor or other clinician, that does not have a two way consultation in which the procedure is explained, the risks both physical and emotional described and questions answered about aftercare as well. It would be seen as medical malpractice not to have a 'consultation' before an abortion. Counseling is a very different creature because it implies a certified or licensed counselor, and drifts away from the medical and physiological manifestations of the procedure into the psychological or emotional well-being. It may involve relationship issues or religious ramifications or even couples. I can't think of another statutorily enshrined requirement for 'counseling' before a medical procedure, but it is common as a standard of treatment for all licensed practitioners for all sorts medical procedures including gender re-assignment, bariatric surgery, major organ transplants etc. I won't speak to constitutionality, but I oppose any statute that requires counseling before an abortion. we have no way to ensure what is being said in that 'counseling' actually is patient based rather than agenda driven communication and it smacks of legislated sexism.
So, one is made aware of the risks and alternatives. How is that not counseling? Feelings are apart of any impact done to one's body. Everyone comes out of it changed and different. Some operations are so routine, it's not felt or seen that way. But it still exists.
OK. Is not counseling, in the cases of surgery, done by the professional? To give the risks? Emotional and physical? Between patient and medical professionals? Not between professionals.
"""""we have no way to ensure what is being said in that 'counseling' actually is patient based rather than agenda driven communication and it smacks of legislated sexism"" EXACTLY....
Sad you think women are so stupid they don't know the alternative to abortion!!! No, it is NOT counseling , she can ask her doctor if she wants to know the risks of abortion or better yet read up on it.. , NO ONE is EVER forced to hear about the risks of their surgery...YES, they can sign a form but they do NOT have to read it. OK, how about FORCED counseling/ consultation for ALL pregnant women who want to have the baby ...with a FORCED viewing of a explicit graphic viewing of EVERY thing that happens during pregnancy, every injury to their bodies, every permanent change to their bodies and stern lectures on how their life will change forever and they will always be poor and not sleep... Hey ! It's just Forced counseling!!! YOU will love it !!! I'll volunteer to do it for them...Fair?????
I don't think women in general are stupid. But some, clearly are. Some are teens that want an abortion, and some are in their 40s. So, they have a completely different mindset and life perspective. But you clearly believe you can speak for every single woman to ever live in the world. Bad on you. And yes, most every woman has counseling on pregnancy when they get pregnant. AGHAST!!!!!
Yes, just like some MEN are stupid...and you want to make laws controlling stupid women...or do you just hate all women? SO WHAT! It's none of your business!!!! You want to enslave and control and punish every single woman....bad on YOU! FORCED BY LAW COUNSELING? ABSOLUTELY NOT ! Try reading the post of mine you quoted and look up sexism.....or look into a mirror. Sad you think women are so stupid they don't know the alternative to abortion!!! No, it is NOT counseling , she can ask her doctor if she wants to know the risks of abortion or better yet read up on it.. , NO ONE is EVER forced to hear about the risks of their surgery...YES, they can sign a form but they do NOT have to read it. OK, how about FORCED counseling/ consultation for ALL pregnant women who want to have the baby ...with a FORCED viewing of a explicit graphic viewing of EVERY thing that happens during pregnancy, every injury to their bodies, every permanent change to their bodies and stern lectures on how their life will change forever and they will always be poor and not sleep... Hey ! It's just Forced counseling!!! YOU will love it !!! I'll volunteer to do it for them...Fair?????[/QUOTE]
Are you arguing in favor of a statutory requirement that women undergo counseling via a licensed or certified counselor prior to an abortion procedure or are you arguing that it can be useful to many women to have counseling before an abortion?
Not a problem! Just to clarify one aspect here. Medical doctors, especially surgeons, are not trained to diagnose and treat serious mental health issues. A medical procedure is not the same thing as a series of counseling sessions where a mental health professional is prescribing medications and then evaluating the impact of those medications on the patient's mental state and adjusting dosages accordingly. In the instance of an abortion the doctor will explain the medical procedure and the risks involved but should not be dealing with why or why not the woman actually wants or needs an abortion because that is entirely outside of the scope of the procedure and the expertise of the doctor.
Did I say that? I am in favor of how things are done today. One wants an abortion, they see a doctor, the doctor explains the things about the operation, and the woman makes a decision. The same procedure/protocol for just about every operation done in the USA.
Today NO ONE is FORCED by law to listen to their doctor "explain" things. "When one wants an abortion" she has already made a decision......so "counseling" could only mean that someone wants to dissuade her from her choice.
The reason it was phrased as a question was to clarify your actual position, rather than have posters make wrong assumptions about what it might be. I figured it would be useful to move forward.
The difference between counselling and consultation has been explained a few times. Also, it is not for the govt. to mandate either, IMO. It is for the medical governing bodies and doctors to determine.
No but the doctor must explain the risks of every procedure. If the patient refuses to listen then any good doctor would cancel the procedure
That's a free choice and doesn't change a word of my post : Today NO ONE is FORCED by law to listen to their doctor "explain" things. "When one wants an abortion" she has already made a decision......so "counseling" could only mean that someone wants to dissuade her from her choice.
No. Counseling can mean getting informed consent. She needs to be told of the risks as well as the benefits. Failure on a doctor to provide informed consent is malpractice. And nothing you have said changes those facts either
Counseling is one thing, informed consent is another. No matter what, abortion doesn't need it's own forced counseling as if it's something other than a legal medical procedure. A patient can be handed a paper stating the risks and outcomes....they can not be forced to read it....
Then they don't need a law forcing women to do anything in regards to a legal medical procedure. Have you ever wondered just what doctors "counsel" women about when they are pregnant and wish to remain so? I wonder if THEY are told every danger and possible complication and permanent damage caused by pregnancy? If a woman doesn't listen to her doctor then is she still allowed to give birth?
