Honest invitation to the Leftist Liberals -- please, tell us on the Right what you REALLY want!

Minimum wage jobs are not designed to be living wage jobs.

Minimum wage jobs are designed for those with zero work experience and possibly retired people looking for something to do.

 

I made the FIRST STATEMENT refuting your economic thoughts that the middle and lower classes were suffering. And you CANNOT argue that point!

The easiest way to improve the middle and lower classes is to simply stop allowing open borders of immigrants that keep your wages down. There's 27 MILLION in the country already and that's 17 percent of the ENTIRE WORKFORCE!

You people are only helping businesses by keeping U.S. wages low.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/forbrn.nr0.htm

When businesses are forced to hire people away from other companies then wages will rise.

Why do you people keep voting for politicians (aka DEMS) that keep your wages low?

Steve

 

Now you are just going around in circles chasing your own tail.

Playing that silly game does not relieve you of your OBLIGATION to substantiate your bogus allegation.

 

Sheeesh! The "circles" are YOU trying to DEFLECT FROM MY ARGUMENT.
EVERYONE can see it except YOU!

When businesses are forced to hire people away from other companies then wages will rise.

Steve

 

I think this sort of crystalizes the discussion as it draws the line between advocacy for capitalism vs. advocacy for the people and huge majority. The concern for forcing a right of first refusal on business owners to give workers a chance to own and run the business for workers, is a concern to preserve capitalist "rights" over something that a seller of a business wouldn't be expected to be so worried about. He wants to cash out. And if he cashes out by selling his business to an existing corporation, what control does he have then? Can he obtain reliable assurance that the buyer won't just part it out, sell the parts, and scrap the business to reduce competition and market supply? No. The buyer does as he may choose. And in addition, I would fully expect that if the Right of First Refusal law were in place, a seller could find a way to discourage a worker buy-out if he wished to get around the ROFR law.

So such a law would probably have very minimal impact on any determined seller, but it could have a significant impact on workers who want to keep their job and occupation going with a genuine stake in their work.

BTW, a Rutgers University study found that worker co-ops are 4% more productive and 14% more profitable than their equivalent "top-down" privately owned capitalist business. Plus there are far fewer layoffs during downturns, -among the several other workers' advantages.

 

i understand what you’re saying but for me it isn’t economics (capitalism vs socialism). It’s simple personal property rights.

It doesn’t matter if violating someone’s rights to property helps another. Those are two separate issues. We must protect the individual first. I know many wish it wasn’t so, but this is the foundation of our system of government.

That said, worker owned businesses are great, I agree.

 

Rights, rights, rights. The property rights relating to a capitalist business are an essential part of capitalism. Concern for them is concern for preserving capitalism. Nothing more.

 

That’s how some see things I suppose. To me property rights apply just as much to the homeless man’s cardboard castle and half eaten hamburger he shares with two imaginary friends according to their needs as to a multi million dollar business. And vice versa. Yeh, I know I’m not very “progressive”.

 

Oh this is such bullshit. The poorest of the poor here don't pay taxes yet they still have plenty of money to be lard asses, have I-phones, netflix, big screen TVs, $5K wheels on cars, go out to eat all the time, etc.

Currently in a few Eastern European countries the average wage is $300-$400 per month, yet those people aren't clamoring for socialism because they know what the hell communism is....the so-called 'make it fair' and bring down successful people because the dumb and lazy are envious and jealous.

 

You don't understand the meaning of the property rights reference. Anti-Marxists absolutely LOVE to confuse this. The reference is actually to private property rights rather than personal property rights. "Private property" as used in Marxian terminology and discussion means specifically the right to private ownership of the "means of production" for private profit. And that is all. It doesn't mean someone's cardboard box, or someone's car, or food, or other possessions because they are not used in the employment of others to exploit labor for private profit. And therefore private property rights are essential to capitalism.

I probably should have been more specific in the beginning. I'm just accustomed to people who already know the difference.

 

That is a favored and common claim by the right but they never produce proof of any such trend or a significant percentage of occurrence based on reliable data. In plain English, I call bullshit on that.

So now you not only fail to substantiate your wild claim (I wonder why), but you also reveal that you have no idea of the difference between socialism and communism, or even what the hell they ARE!

With such a string of bullshit and falsehoods, there is no point in trying to do any education. The sheer bulk of the crap here pretty well proves it is intentional, treasured, adhered to, and resistant to education.

 

Half a century ago I decided that I wanted to find out the truth about communism, and that to do that I decided to get it straight from communists and to learn their subject as they know it. So I joined up with a local communist Marxist-Leninist organization for about 3 years. I attended their meetings and spent time with them otherwise, chatting and exploring the ideas. Reading Marx and discussing his writings.

So I can tell you that not only have you shown that you have no idea what socialism and communism are, but also that you are pitifully unable to judge whether a person knows anything about it or not.

I'll be happy to pit my wits against yours in a debate about socialism and communism anytime, anywhere. But people like you tend to run away from such an offer.

 

Bring your ass own, I don't care. I imagine I know more about Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin than you do. Whoop-T-Do on your little local wannabe commie club. My woman was born in the USSR and her parents/grand parents were long time commies until it fell in 1991. I've been all over Eastern Europe and have a Russian visa. Avatar is off my cell phone. Been there many times. Yes, I know absolutely nothing about communism.

Communism/socialism is nothing but forced wealth re-distribution to equality with supposedly a government run by the common people. But in reality it's a wealth grab by a collective few who turn into oppressive dictators who use the government to do it.

 

Well that explains it. All countries rely on propaganda. The USSR relied on VERY HEAVY propaganda. It's just about hopeless for anyone who lived under that corrupt and bogus excuse for "communism" to ever be able to accept the truth about it.

That is exactly what the USSR was and still is. But all that wasn't socialism. It was a strategy to get to socialism. And it never got there. The working class was never in control of industry nor did they own it. It was all imposed on them by force.

What you are objecting to, as you should, is the strategy and methods involved. They directly impacted the people to the point of destroying lives. And it is a black mark on history that will never be forgotten.

 

The dumbest thing I've ever read. No, wait, I've heard this before from socialists "They just weren't doing it right"



Propaganda? Yep, sure. But NO WHERE close to the scale we have here in the cable news/internet age. CNN and MSNBC would put any Stalin era propaganda to shame!

My Russian friends would likely want to slap the piss out of you for saying "it was a strategy to get to socialism". Socialism is the lure used to get to communism!! Envy and jealousy....the tools of socialists!

 

Nobody with a slightest knowledge of Marxism thinks the USSR was anything close to communism. And you are digging deeper into the hole of proving you know nothing about the subject because the facts are hidden from you by hate. You even think communism can be imposed on a country by force!!!! LOL!!! Everything you've said shows you're running as fast as you can from the truth and the facts. So go ahead, wallow in your preferred propaganda. And screw your "friends". I know that was a veiled threat.

 

Continued absence of substantiation for your bogus allegation duly noted for the record.

 

Agreed!

What followed was indeed complete and utter bullshit!

 

You guys generally move the goal posts.

What is your definition of socialism/communism?

I'm guessing that it has something to do with employee ownership of the factory. Yet nobody ever told you guys that you can't pool your resources and pay for your own factory...

Yet you still complain, as if you had a leg to stand on.

 

BS! Your BS was already debunked!

IRONIC! isn't it!

Steve

 

I lived in Rhode Island for that election. I have never voted for a Democrat in my life, but if I had lived in Massachusetts then, I would have voted for Silber.

 

At least you are consistent in your failure to substantiate your bogus allegations.

 

Your BS was already debunked!

IRONIC! isn't it!

Steve

 

"The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

• Forty-three percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
• Eighty percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
• Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
• The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
• Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 31 percent own two or more cars.
• Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
• Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
• Eighty-nine percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and more than a third have an automatic dishwasher.

As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.

While the poor are generally well nourished, some poor families do experience temporary food shortages. But even this condition is relatively rare; 89 percent of the poor report their families have "enough" food to eat, while only 2 percent say they "often" do not have enough to eat.

Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs. While this individual's life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, liberal activists, and politicians."
https://www.heritage.org/poverty-an...cas-poor-examining-the-plague-poverty-america

Apparently I'm way poorer than most poor people!