Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Yah, all because your god, according to your bible, hardened their hearts. He is shown to do that with all who do not believe while the bible shows god controlling all who believe.

Why does god harden hearts against his own wish to be believed to be god?

In 2 Corinthians 3;14 - 15 God hardens Jewish hearts against their believing in Jesus as their messiah.

John 12;39-40 says about the same. The same applies to Romans 11;25, 2 Corinthians 4;3-4,

Regards
DL

 

exactly the ignorant response i expected. goodbye ignored member

 

He didn't like the paint job.

 

Judgment. We're all gonna be judged for our sins if you're not in Jesus. Good luck.

 

Are you? Why is torture in hell "pointless"? Everyone on Earth is given an opportunity to avoid it. Most get millions of opportunities.

 

Endless torture doesn't result in any kind of improvement or other benefit. It could only possibly be useful as a stupendous threat against humans, who don't particularly respond well to threats.

And no, it's obviously not true that everyone on Earth has an opportunity to do what is necessary by the law of some religion.

Beyond that, Christianity (our most popular religion in the US) holds that people can LOSE salvation and thus go to hell.

Yet, rarely does anyone bother to discuss the various ways one can go to hell! And, that's serious evidence that even Christians aren't all that sure to understand how they can end up perpetually tortured.

 

It isn't supposed to result in any kind of improvement or benefit. It's just straight up punishment.

 

That's not a good enough answer to why there should exist a hell. I'm not saying there has to be a good answer - we can have a god who is cruel beyond description.

The NT describes a god of love.

Yet, the message seems to be "I'll love you if and only if you love me. Otherwise, you will be punished by eternal torture in the fires of Hell".

That's not actually love.

 

What if hell is just separation from God and Creation.. IOW what if hell is like an isolation tank.. You don't recognize God.. fine.. see what your eternal soul feels like when it is in complete isolation.

 

I know people who believe that. However, there is still an eternal torture/punishment element to it. So, I don't think it alters the issue by much.

It's like, what if god only tortures you a little for eternity? What if he promises you won't be in screaming agony forever?

It still means that 0% of our total existence (our 100 years on earth divided by infinity) determines whether we will be tortured 100% of eternity with no possibility of parole, improvement, contribution, etc.

 

You have a choice..

 

Well, there are thousands of choices - many of them within Christianity, more in the combined Abrahamic faiths and way, way more outside that.

I wonder how many Christians know the ways that a born again believer could become rejected by God - one possible measure of how seriously we take this decision.

 

You follow Satan.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.

Regards
DL

 

To torture and fry a soul before killing it is purposeless torture.

Thanks for showing your lack of a moral sense.

Regards
DL

 

True. It is more like a slave owner setting his standards.

Do it or burn baby burn.

Regards
DL

 

You think being separated from a genocidal and infanticidal god is bad???

Why?

Will Hitler be in your heaven? Goes your god like vile genocide users like himself?

Regards
DL

 

He sometimes hardens the hearts that are already evil.

For example Pharaoh (Exodus 9:12), he was probably already destined for hell.

Because they're already very evil and he's sending them on a one-way ticket to hell.
Or withholding a source of salvation in this life because they so much do not deserve that mercy. (i.e. They can still play the game but without the get out of jail free card)

 

Can you foresee any possible circumstance where an individual might actually deserve endless torture?

Here's just a hypothetical to think about. Person A rapes person B's wife. In response, Person B kills person A. Person B now no longer gets to go to heaven because of what he did, because of what Person A did.

Here's another hypothetical to think about. What if you took all the people in the world and were somehow able to divide them into two groups based on the more ethical ones and the less ethical ones. You divided the Earth into two countries with a border that no one could hop over. What do you think the difference would start looking like between those two different places?

How about if you populated a city with all former prisoners, or people that were released from death row? What do you think the quality of living would be like in that city? If all your neighbors were compulsive thieves and serial rapists, what would life be like?

And if there was no ultimate death, where would all these people go?

 

No, Christianity is not about god finding some evil humans to cull. That may happen, but that is NOT the point of the religion.

The central theme of Christianity is that the individual must identify and accept the right religion even in the absence of earthly evidence.

Christians hold that Mahatma Gandhi was deserving of eternal torture in hell.

I find it unacceptable to believe that selecting the "wrong" religion means one deserves eternal, unpardonable torture in hell - that nothing one does on earth could possibly alter that fate and nothing in the beyond could improve that condition.

That is clearly and totally inconsistent with the message of God's love of man. There is zero love in that.

 

No, I do not believe that anyone "deserves" an eternity of torture. But, that's not the point. The point is that I don't believe anyone "deserves" an eternity of torture for not figuring out which religion is the real religion and then following through on what that might entail.

According to Christianity, heaven will include those who have committed murder and rape. What someone has done before forgiveness isn't part of the prescription for heaven.

However, Matthew 25, 31-end does have some interesting things to say about how someone who has become a born again Christian may become rejected by God. So, it's true that one's "works" are not irrelevant - even if they are insufficient for "earning" heaven. All but some obscure branches of Christianity accept the interpretation that salvation is revocable by God.

I don't see any relevance in either of these questions.

I fully believe in ultimate death.

It's called "death". Every life form on earth experiences "death".

 

The huge mistake you (and to be honest countless others) make is to believe that a person "deserves" to go to heaven based on good deeds on Earth.

They don't. Strictly speaking all humans deserve hell. Because as the Bible says "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

But God's grace allows us to have eternal salvation if we do what is necessary to claim it. Taking the steps to claim our salvation is NOT "earning salvation" any more than a person who wins 10 million dollars in a lottery has "earned" it. Even though they have to take steps to claim the prize.

 

No, I absolutely do NOT suggest that Christianity includes a way to heaven through works one may do on earth. I know what you are saying. I think I just didn't make that clear enough for you. I would add that even though you may believe that all humans deserve eternal torture for no more than existing, it is still god who chooses to carry out that eternal torture.

It IS the case that the individual must search out and follow through the prescription of the "correct" religion in order to achieve Christian heaven. Obviously, that can be seriously difficult work - difficult enough to be impossible for vast numbers of humans.

I also pointed out that Matthew gives us a prescription for how a born again Christian may earn their way to hell through works on earth. That doesn't get much advertising, but every branch of Christianity throughout the world (save some highly obscure ones) believes that one may be born again, but subsequently rejected by God.

 

I think you're mistaken. Judgement is one of the tenants of Christianity.
St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that one of the satisfactions the righteous will have is seeing the punishment of wicked.
(or something to that effect, it's not exactly word for word, don't have time to look it up right now)

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm

Let me point you to another thread:
a lot of the misunderstandings about Christianity come from a lack of wisdom about human nature

 

Why so many Christian hate threads on this forum? And they are mum on Islam...

 

What if it's at the bequest of the victims they have wronged?
What if the only people who get severely punished are the ones with victims who do not forgive them?