To impeach or not to impeach, that is the question

That "Obama's reasons involved the security of the country. Trump's reasons were purely personal..." is simply your opinion, not any sort of fact.

As to what sticks or doesn't stick to the wall, well I was certainly told about every week for two years that THIS is the proof of Trump treason, and yet none of it panned out. So forgive me if I don't fall for that football trick Lucy.

 

to the latter, not necessarily. Many presidents routinely advance foreign or domestic policies that are to their personal benefit. President Carter ordered Operation Eagle Claw (attempted rescue mission of U.S. embassy hostages in 1980) mainly because he was suffering politically due to the ongoing crisis.

Nixon (and before him Johnson) sought to end U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War mainly to enhance their political fortunes.

You really want to know how many instances of this practice I can cite?

 

Considering his illegal activities and incompetence, he doesn't have to be. The 7th Cavalry followed Custer to their doom. The German people followed Hitler to their doom lasting decades.

There is a lesson in there somewhere.

 

Bloomberg reports, "Donald Trump’s impeachment defense hangs by a thread after two weeks of House hearings, as a parade of witnesses described how his efforts to pressure Ukraine to investigate Democratic rival Joe Biden extended well beyond the two leaders’ July 25 telephone call.

"Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, a decorated Army officer and Ukraine expert, recalled raising concerns to the top lawyer at the National Security Council over what he viewed as Trump’s inappropriate political demand on that call for a Biden probe.

"Vindman’s former boss, Fiona Hill, testified she came to understand that Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, had been tasked by Trump with a “political errand” in Ukraine outside of regular U.S. foreign policy. And Sondland, a Trump donor, told lawmakers that the president, through his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, ordered him to carry out a “quid pro quo.”

"Witnesses warned the House Intelligence Committee in grave terms that the pursuit of dirt on Biden was wrong, undermined U.S. foreign policy efforts and wasn’t rooted in a sincere effort to crack down on corruption or criminal activity in Ukraine. And they criticized the president’s Republican allies for trying to justify his behavior by promoting debunked conspiracy theories they said had no grounding in fact."

That pretty much sums it up, and I wager Trump's fans will totally ignore this testimony.

 

Neither the 7th Cavalry nor Hitler were elected by 63 million voters. If you choose not to regard President Trump as your president, you are choosing to contemptuously ignore and disregard the fully legitimate preference of 63 million people.

And I'm pretty sure the majority of American voters in 2016 were fully aware of just what Donald Trump was (and is).

 

Why do Republicans keep saying Democrats hate Trump?
That is simply not true.
If the Republicans were a team, Trump would merely be the mascot.
Nobody hates the mascot.

 

Your post reflects the reality & danger of Trump's impact on American society & Americans generally. Trump has spread his personal distrust of anyone & everyone to half of all Americans. To say Trump's reasons for withholding Ukraine aid was simply based on opinion rather than facts, is completely wrong. The evidence is overwhelming. But Trump has succeeded in teaching you & many Americans to stop trusting anything or anyone--except him, of course. That's the methodology most authoritative rulers use to gain & hold onto office. I'm sorry to see that you have fallen under his spell. You weaken the Constitution & the nation by doing so.

I don't use any, or know any "football tricks." Nor would I use them if I did. I am seriously concerned for the survival of our nation under Trump. I'm not trying to pick on anyone, or start conflict with anyone. I'm trying to communicate my concerns & hoping for some healing.

 

Interesting. I'm also concerned about the survival of the country's representative form of government when the opposition party decides it's going to go in a state of resistance and try to remove an elected president for three years. I've never seen anything like this, and I doubt our system (as currently configured) is going to survive it. You guys have, I fear, permanently damaged the republic. Every time there is one party in charge of the house and another in the White House, there will be idiotic (and dangerous) attempts to remove him. You've already crossed the Rubicon, and although you may regret it someday, it won't matter to the nation you've worked so hard to destroy.

 

Do you really believe a man like Carter would have sent men into danger for personal political reasons? Iran had held hostages for almost a year. You can't allow yourself to believe Carter simply wanted to rescue them? Carter has spent every year since leaving the Presidency, doing volunteer construction work for companies that build housing for poor families. He still does. Does that not impress you with something good about Carter as a man?

You sound like a man who has been swayed by the propaganda machine of Trump, who constantly tells us to never trust anyone or anything around us, & always expect the worst--like him. Your post makes you look very much like he found a convert in you. How very sad.

No, I don't want to hear how many instances of distrust you can cite. There's far too much negativity in our country & the world today. We don't need to add more.

 

I've already given up the idea of our nation surviving Trump.
I am concerned for the survival of humanity under Trump.

 

There were & continue being legitimate legal reasons for Congressional action toward impeachment of Trump. What the evidence seems to show Trump doing is not only illegal, but dangerous to the survival of a valuable ally, & potentially a looming threat to the security of the U.S. itself. Democrats are trying to SAVE the Constitutional Republic, NOT destroy it. We have a man in the Oval Office who never acts for the country unless that action somehow benefits himself in some material way. I've never seen or head of any President doing that--certainly not to the degree Trump does. Trump himself is a danger to America. He's completely ignorant of how to be a President, & his attempts to pretend are doing great damage to out established institutions & to the trust & faith we have had historically in our Constitution & our Republic. I disagree with you on this. I believe every moment Trump remains in office is a danger to the nation. Trump is destructive. America needs someone constructive.

 

I join you in your concerns.

 

Is that a joke?

 

So you are in effect saying that if you had elected Hitler, then whatever he did would have been okay.

 

Well that's the thing, I suppose if you genuinely believe that Trump is such a danger, you'll justify anything to get him out of office. But once you justify anything, you've broken the system. The coup plotters who assassinated Julius Caesar were trying to get rid of tyranny and restore the Republic, and instead accomplished the opposite.

That's exactly what #resist is doing.

 

Impeach and acquit. Let's end this long national nightmare.

Then we can enjoy the last five years of the Trump Administration.

 

I honestly don't think that just "getting him out of office" is gonna change things much. Although it wouldn't hurt.
We might have a chance when the new generations take over. I think the young folks could make a difference.
Just gotta wait til these old farts die off.
That is...if there is still anything left after the old farts are gone.

 

Didn't Clinton bomb the African aspirin factory when he was low in the polls?

 

I honestly don't think that just "getting him out of office" is gonna change things much. Although it wouldn't hurt.
We might have a chance when the new generations take over. I think the young folks could make a difference.
Just gotta wait til these old farts die off.
That is...if there is still anything left after the old farts are gone.

 

No it doesn't. It is no secret that Carter was trolling for a Nobel Peace Prize for years after leaving office. He considered it the perfect validation of his presidency.

And Operation Eagle Claw was about 6 months after the hostages were seized.

 

Today Trump refused to answer questions from reporters about the impeachment hearings, but he spoke for over 50 minutes on "Fox and Friends." In the interview he declared "I want a trial," referring to a Senate trial if the House passes Articles of Impeachment.
...
He then provided a list of witnesses in his Senate trial. The list included the whistleblower, Adam Schiff, Hunter Biden, and Joe Biden.

Conspicuous by their absence are witnesses close to Trump and close to the issues surrounding Ukraine and the July 25 phone call. Absent are Mick Mulvaney, director of the OMB, the agency that withheld the military aid to Ukraine. Also, SecState Mike Pompeo is missing, and he was the boss of many of the witnesses who appeared in the hearings. Absent also is John Bolton, the fired NSA and the person most knowledgeable of the events surrounding the July 25 phone call. Also missing is Rudy Giuliani, Trump's personal lawyer who played a key role in the Ukrainian controversy.

If Trump is innocent like he says he is, and the call was "perfect" then, hypothetically, these witnesses could tell their story and prove Trump was, indeed, innocent.

However, Trump does not want these people to appear at his Senate trial. Why? They have first hand knowledge of Trump's wants and desires ... and the motivation.

That's why.

 

I don't regard myself as a coup plotter. I don't really believe in or support coups. If our Constitutional system doesn't get rid of Trump, then I'll join you & the rest of America & tolerate him until the voters retire him to his golden tower--hopefully in 2020. But I'm hoping those responsible will do their duty & rid us of this abject failure as a President & as a human being.

 

You know nothing about our country's history.

You know nothing about our Constitution.

You know nothing about what Trump has done because ...

You have simply ignored the evidence of Trump's guilt.

 

It was long enough to support taking action. It's too bad it failed, but at least he tried.

How can you find something good in such a nasty man as Trump, and see ONLY bad in such a humane man as Carter. You Trump supporters confound me.

 

Those "new generations" don't get to remake the world, that's a high school commencement address myth. They inherit a world in which they have to live with decisions that others have already made, and that includes bequeathing a political culture in which anything goes to strike back at your enemies. Those new generations of Romans could never restore the Republic, and if you and your gang destroy ours, the "new generations" won't be able to restore our Republic either.