A conversation: I like Trump...convince me otherwise.

I like Donald Trump as president. Now, I am currently in my mid 20s, so I haven't lived that long. But, at least from my perspective, Donald Trump is the greatest president of my lifetime so far. Now, I however am not a closed minded person. I am willing to have my mind changed. So I am posting this post in an attempt to listen to other arguments in favor of the other side of this debate. I am generally interested to hear new arguments, because I have yet to hear a actually logically thought out answer that doesn't involve some ridiculous ad-hominin attack against me or the current president. So please post away, I am looking forward to the discussion.

 

Hello fellow mid20's person!

What about him do you like?

 

Personally...

1. I mostly agree with him ideologically.
2. I have agreed with most of his policy proposals and policy ideas.(No that doesn't include the wall, I have actually always that idea was a little ridiculous).
3. I also, as a right leaning person, I have been treated poorly for my ideas and beliefs many times in the past, and I have seen others who think a similar way I do treated poorly. So when trump deals with his political opponents (and I don't think anyone would dispute this), I see a president who isn't afraid to confront the typical bullshit argument that many on the other side of the spectrum throw at republicans and other right leaning people, and instead fights fire with fire and simply doesn't just take it (unlike Romney and McCain).
4. I have yet to hear a reasonable argument to convince me other wise.

 

Did you watch his performance today in his Covid-19 press conference???? I rest my case!!!

 

There's a saying in feminism, the personal is political. You've described many personal reasons, especially the third point. Do you actually like Trump, or do you see him reflecting in you?

 

First off, it's not all personal or emotion based. I generally mostly agree with his administration ideologically and politically. However, I also have no hate for the guy. I can understand if someone doesn't like him cause he can be a little blunt and crass sometimes. But, what I find most frustrating about most conversations I have with people about him, is that most of the arguments I hear that criticize him are all emotion based and are full of logical fallacies.

Secondly, what is it that you are referring to when you stated "..do you see him reflecting in you"?

 

My only response to that, is to come back later with some actual reasonable argument that isn't conjecture.

 

There's nothing wrong with emotion, emotions are important because they tell us things about the world and our place in it. To ignore them is to say you don't have a gut reaction when someone says something you disagree with. Are they logically fallacies, or arguments whose premises you won't or can't accept?

As for your question, when you see Trump acting the way he does it's because that's how you want to be seen. You want to emulate him in this regard.

 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with emotions, but to fully rely on them to make philosophical, political, or any other type of intellectual argument is in my opinion foolhardy. Also, there are many logical fallacies, that are pure emotion based, such as the Ad-Hominin fallacy.

As for the last point you made, I don't know if I would handle certain situations the same way trump would. But, I will admit that I do sometimes wish I was more confident in myself. I was born with autism, which brings with it a myriad of mental differences between myself and others, so you are probably right that on some sub-conscious phycological basis, that is probably part of the reason for why I like him.

 

Ok, now my response to this post is please stop using ad-hominin fallacy attacks against me. I posted this thread to have a reasonable conversational type debate with people and everything you have posted has been illogically constructed and purely emotion based. Also, by doing what you just did, you're just proving my argument. Oh yeah...I also reported you to the forum leaders about you breaking the 2nd rule of this forum, which is you are '..not allowed to name call or personally attack another forum user'. So have fun with that.

 

Really? You wanted a 'reasonable conversational type debate' asking people here to convince you not to like Donald Trump? Your premise just does not pass the laugh test. Nobody is going to convince a trump supporter after four years on the campaign trail and in office, not to 'like' Donald Trump. Its just not normal to turn your own views into the debate question.

If you wanted to debate the policies of Trump, there are ways to do that without making yourself the focal point. You made this thread about you as much as trump or his policies. Why did you structure this that way?

 

First off, maybe if you actually had a conversation with me instead of insulting and personally attacking me, you might convince me not to be a trump supporter. It's almost like there is an idea called...oh yeah...Free Speech!!!!! Secondly, Whenever any one has or contributes to a debate, they are by definition as you put it, "..turn[ing] your own views into the debate question" and "...making yourself the focal point." Even you by posting in this thread are making yourself a "focal point". So please, you are only proving my point. Next time you post in this thread, talk to me without insulting me. If you don't, I will report you again.

 

First off, maybe if you actually had a conversation with me instead of insulting and personally attacking me, you might convince me not to be a trump supporter. It's almost like there is idea called Free Speech!!!!! I am not some closed minded idiot. If you actually talk to me without insulting me, maybe you can convince me. It's called a debate!!!!!!Also, your argument is ridiculous, purely emotion based. Try again.

 

Oh I understand that feeling completely. Yet I'm curious this is the third post you've mentioned logical fallacies now. Obviously they matter to you, but my concern is that it's actually a buzzword you're relying on. There's some interesting research on identity politics that suggest that people on the right are more prone to identity politics. My concern is that the references to logic are an example of that. Claiming to be "logical" against arguments based on "emotion" seems to be one of those phrases. I'm not saying you are, but could you respond to that concern? This might matter for why you like Trump, it's not because of his policies, but because you share similar 'tribal' or 'in group' markers (I don't like the term tribal, but that's the literature). You don't necessarily agree with him on policy, but he speaks the same language.

 

I am not asking you to persuade me to like Trump, or persuade me of anything.
I don't accept the premise that there is any way for anyone to change the mind of a trump supporter who challenges posters to do just that . Its not happening and I really don't think any one here believes it is happening. So that leads me to ask what else is the purpose of this thread. Logically debate for its own sake would seem the purpose but then I have to wonder why you would want people to center their attention on the stated goal of this thread. And that remains my question. Don't dodge or threaten because there is no insult here. Just a question why do you want us to persuade you not to like Trump?

 

Ok, with all due respect, and I do mean that, you have been very nice so far(unlike others who have posted on this thread), and I appreciate that. However, logic and logical fallacy have been considered a problem by philosophers, historians and...well any other academic person who is to be taken seriously, since ancient Greece and Socrates. While I do agree that people on both sides of the political spectrum can be very tribal and partisan, and by the way I am one of them sometimes, I am in no way perfect. But, we can't fully rely on emotion when decided conclusions on any intellectually important subject. BTW I will post a link to a logical fallacy site to show you what I mean.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

 

So you are calling Trump supporters cult members? a simple yes or no is good, stand by what you meant.

 

Well, isn't it nice to be compared to members of a suicidal cult? But Mr. Trump is the divisive one, he alone drives it...

 

Of course, I think you are genuine in this and I don't mind having this conversation. I know my fallacies, but that's not really what I'm saying. It's not about logic, it's about "logic". I'm saying your word choice is full of meaning, and in a language that is more receptive to a particular ideological group of people. I'm not so interested in Trump and his policies you agree with. He could potentially change them today and people would still follow him because he is saying it in a language receptive to his followers. If this is the case, do you need support Trump or do you need him? That's an important difference. Do you see the conceptual difference I'm making?

 

First off, I have heard this argument before, "...I don't accept the premise that there is any way for anyone to change the mind of a trump supporter...". When I read that often repeated argument of yours, all it did was convince me and hopefully others who read this of your clearly bigoted perception of people who think different than you, specifically republicans and trump supporters. I would in no way insult anyone who thinks different than me on anything but you have, and your wrong you personally attacked/insulted me twice already. So again good luck dealing with the heads of this forum on that.

Secondly, I didn't post this thread because I have some kind of evil or mean spirited agenda. I posted the thread because I wanted to have a discussion on the issues that matter with other people. That is and was the only reason I did it. So when you keep insisting that I am some kind evil shifty person who posted this thread for my own self-aggrandizement, it again only shows your own biased bigoted perception of myself and the millions of others who voted for Donald Trump. So please, stop it. You just keep proving my point every time you do it.

 

That makes 2 of us.

 

Some liberals dont do much but insult those with the sheer audacity, to believe differently than them (how dayahh they?) . One wonders if it ever occurs to them, they are a wedge, driving people away from their cause?

 

Never said or suggested you had an evil intent. However you have accused me of having a 'bigoted perception of people' with half the story. Lets try it this way. Donald Trump is the most divisive polarizing political figure of our lives. That's not me speaking, that's polling data from even before he won election. Its pretty much all love or hate with Donald Trump. That means that his opponents are dug it, his supporters are dug in. It means nobody's mind is going to change on Donald Trump, not mine not yours. Now once again why did you decide NOT write a thread title asking whether Donald Trump was a great President or whether he was a great leader? Why did you make convincing you the goal of this thread?

Don't dodge and weave, just answer the question.

 

Ok. I don't agree with your statement about trump possibly changing his positions on issues and people will still support them. If trump, tomorrow even, came out and said he was against...I don't know... the bill of rights for example, and then enacted legislation that went against the bill of rights, or maybe if he actually did claim himself legally president for life and started running this country like an actual dictator( which he hasn't done and I don't think he will). I would have a serious problem with that and would problem not support him. It's not just how he says it.

 

Ok, first off you did and were insinuating that I have evil intent and you still are. Why the hell does it matter why I titled the thread what I titled it!!!! It doesn't matter and your clear questioning of my intent, only proves my point that you still are. Also, you called me a self involved person(don't deny it, I quoted your ass before you edited your post ). So I find it funny, that after you insult me you try to walk it back to try and save your self.

Secondly, the idea that trump is the most divisive political figure of our lifetime is a highly opinionated statementon on your part and is very debatable. The polls that show his approval rating, which is what I believe you are referring to, only show whether someone likes him or not. I fail to see how this makes him "the most devisive political figure of our lifetime". I thought Obama was incredibly devicive. To make this statement is purely opinion based. So I fail to see how this makes him devisive. Also, how do you know if it's all love or hate. I highly doubt that there aren't people out there or are indifferent to trump. Also, even though most people would argue that Lincoln was probably one of our greatest presidents, and I am one of them. It is also the case, that at the time of his election he was the most devisive president of that generation. His election caused the splitting of the union. So please, perceived divisiveness has nothing to do with whether or not someone is a good president.

so again, the arguments you have made are pretty much only based on opinion and conjecture. Also, again, have fun with forum heads. If there is any sense of fairness on this forum they should give you a strike on your account.