Trump's income-tax declarations will be interesting

Trump is nonetheless the product of his father. Should the Chief Executive of a nation be a "family affair" amongst America's super-rich? That depends upon how you were brought up - and what you believe is the primary premise regarding Income Taxation.

In any democracy, it is the people-who-vote that rightly decide, but they also must assume the consequences of their decision. There is no good reason whatsoever to blame somebody/anybody else - we-the-sheeple are ultimately responsible for those we elect in a functional democracy.

Meaning what? That we all assume WHOLLY the consequences that derive from the popular-vote. There is no one else that is logically responsible for the outcome. Which is why the electoral-vote is at the heart of any Real Democracy. And also why it should not be manipulated to any given outcome by either of the two-parties. Which is NOT THE CASE in America today! The Electoral College has been manipulable since its conception and implementation in 1787!

From the NYT here: Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes as He Reaped Riches From His Father

It is understandable why Trump has not wanted his Tax Returns divulged to the public. But that is history.

There are decidedly interesting times ahead running up to the November Presidential election ...

 

As I mentioned in another thread, who really cares?
I know all of you democrats pour over each candidates tax returns every presidential election because you are educated, concerned voters.

Tell me what was it exactly about Hillary's returns that you all found so comforting? Be specific, site page numbers.

Or, tell me what it is about Joe Biden's recent return that tells you he will be a great president, again site specifics, should be easy as you are all so interested in tax returns there is no way you haven't all inspected them closely.

 

NATIONAL INCOME DISPARITY

You've got it all wrong. About us "democrats". All wrong.

The issue at hand is much larger than you comprehend. Which is evident from the silly questions you pose above.

It is something economists call Income Disparity (or Unfairness). It derives from the fact that America (and Americans) have thought since the end of the 19th century that those who made tremendous amounts of money should be able to keep as much of it as possible. (And "how much" they keep is all about Income Taxation".)

Which is why Jerko in the White House dropped upper Income Taxation even further as soon as he got there - to help assure his reelection funding. Thus today, this is what US Income Taxation looks like:


The above permits some to earn one great insufficiently-taxed income. Which they inevitably leave to their family. Which is how Donald Dork became a multi-millionaire. His manipulations of his father's wealth will come out soon now that his taxes will be reviewed.

The "mental thought" behind the necessity for much higher income-taxation is this simple idea: "Do they really need such tremendous wealth?" And the short answer is NO! THEY DON'T! And nobody does!

And, of course, that notion expressed is contrary to what a lot of people think should be The American Way!

America has a population close to that of California (around 40 million) who live below the Poverty-threshold. Which is for a family of four, including two children, US$26,200 per year.

And some of us think that such is an intolerable Societal Aberrance that should not and need not exist! And it is for this reason that a National Spending Budget that allocates more than half its total funding to the DoD* is wholly Unfair and Unacceptable! (See America's National Spending Pie-chart here.)

That money would be far better spent going into a National Healthcare Plan and very low-cost Tertiary Level Education for our kids. Both of which are absolutely necessary because, for instance, Americans have:
*A lifespan four years less than Europeans that benefit from National Healthcare Services) and
*Tertiary Level Education costs that block-out a great number of children who would like to pursue such a degree but financially cannot. Why should Post-secondary Education not be like Secondary-schooling? That is: Free, gratis and for nothing!
*Why are we pissing away more than half the National Discretionary Spending on the DoD when there is no war nowhere of any consequence?

Shall we as a nation start thinking about what is Really Important? (National Economic Fairness amongst its people!)

Or not?

 

What does matter if they NEED it or not? It's not yours. Its thiers. If you raise taxes on someone just because you think they don't NEED thier money then you really are nothing more than a thief. (Note: I'm using the royal "you" here. Not directed at anyone in particular)

And yeah, I get it. Other people could use that money more. That still doesn't give you the right to take thier money.

Instead of taking thier money why don't you instead educate them better? You can do this by reforming our school system. Take the best parts out of the top 5-10 school systems in the world, adjust them for our culture, and implement them. Stress things like economics, civics, and stem sciences.

 

LIFE IS NOT JUST A GAME!

Thank you for showing clearly your IGNORANCE of what is called Social Justice.

Perhaps you think life is a war, and we are all battling one another for the biggest sum of money. And the winners are the winners and that's all that matters.

Such selfishness exists predominantly in the US and it is typical of Rabid-Right thinking in America. For whom, life and the way we live it is all about Me, Me, Me. That's what you call "freedom"? The winners win and the losers can go to hell?

What planet do you live on ... ?

No, not me. But the state can take it with Fair & Equitable Taxation - which unfortunately does not exist in the US!

Most importantly, that taxation should be spent enhancing the living-standards of those who pay it. Do try explaining therefore the reason that more than half the Discretionary Spending of the US goes to just the DoD. (See pie-chart spending here.)

Who's attacking America that requires such massive expenditure? And just how does the DoD enhance our well-being?

Have we not better objectives to achieve. Yes, we do ... !

My sentiments exactly. But educate them how? The most important subject is also the least addressed by education in America. It is called xxxxxxxxx

A democracy is also a social-animal that not only protects the nation from external harm but furthers the abilities of its citizens by means of a decent Healthcare System and adequate Education. Which means also that instead of spending half the nation's Discretionary Income on the DoD, we spend it on a much lower-cost National Healthcare System and Education of our children up to Post-secondary Degree if desired. And we accomplish both key public-services as inexpensively as possible!

Yes, the US is a democracy in which all participants should expect fairness and decency. Especially in a country where when threatened you expect me-and-my-kids to go out and get killed defending it!

But there is no taxation on Wealth derived wholly extravagantly beyond the necessities of any one person or family! Moreover, we allow the greater part of that undeserved wealth be literally "gifted" to whomever the donor chooses. Thus preserving immense-wealth for individuals who never ever spent ONE DAY earning it!

All wrong, all wrong, all weirdly wrong ... if YOU expect my kids to fight and die in the defense of YOUR MASSIVELY ACCRUED WEALTH due to far-too-low taxation. That's a notion of "democracy" that is sick, sick and sickening ...

 

I'd love for him to issue Congress a challenge, show yours and I'll show mine and drug test their asses too. How many people here actually believe they would? If a President is expected to, why should the "public servants" in Congress, not be expected to?

 

ELECTORAL MAGIC

That is a matter of debate - and it is good that you underscore the point here.

We are not playing a sport - we are all members of a community that abides by certain laws and conventions called a "nation".

Some people - and not Americans - have decided that the community is far more important than the individual. Because the individual is only a singular-component of a larger entity - the nation.

Some people cannot understand that such a fundamental verity is at the heart of any genuine democracy. So, they try to manipulate that democracy by means that are unfair and inapt. The election of the Head of State in America by means ONLY of a universal suffrage is key. But the manipulation of the results by an "Electoral College" is precisely undemocratic by nature. Which is a fact proven true five times in the history of the nation when the popular-vote was contravened by an inherently illicit manipulation of the voting process - and the loser became the winner.

Abra-cadabra ... electoral magic!

Taxation is not "taking" money - watch your words!

It is the contribution made to the functioning of a democracy, and its amount is decided by elected representatives who govern the nation. Also its usage, and in some countries, unlike the US, the money is intended to provide key services. Whyzzat?

Because of a notion that you evidently do not understand. It is called Social Justice which means "justified fairness in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society."

Yes, it is my right to vote for representatives to Congress and the Presidency that will pursue precisely those objectives ...

 

Social Justice is just a term used by those that are jealous of those that have more than them. And is also why many use SJW as a perjorative, because SJW's want to take everyone else's money.

And I wouldn't be calling those in the US selfish considering those in the US give more in donations than most other countries. In fact we gave almost double what the next highest ranking country in charity. LINK: America, New Zealand and Canada top list of world's most generous nations

You're right. A Fair Tax should be used. But I don't think you actually want a fair tax. As it stands the top 1% earners pay 47% of the taxes in the country while being less than 1% of the total population of the US. The bottom 44% of people in the US do not pay any taxes at all. If there was a fair tax then those that you "fight for" would be paying far more in taxes.

It is not up to the government to "enhance" a persons living standards. That is up to them. It's called self responsibility. The government is not our nanny. They are not our parents. Be a grown up.

Hey, I have no problem cutting the DoD spending. I've advocated for such before. But you don't need to raise taxes on the wealthy, or anyone else for that matter, in order to re-direct that spending on DoD to other areas. So really you did nothing to enhance your argument against the wealthy here. It was a non-sequitur.

Sorry, don't know what "xxxxxxxxx" is. I've never heard of that subject. Perhaps you could come back with the actual name instead of blanking it out? And I already told you how to go about reforming our education system.

Again with the non-sequitur that has nothing to do with the wealthy.

They should expect fairness and decency from the government. I agree. But they should not expect the government to pay for their every wants and needs. That is up to the individual to improve their lot in life.

I don't expect your kids to fight and die for anything. The draft hasn't been instituted in 40+ years. It has only been used 6 times in 200+ years. Pretty sure your children are safe from it. As are mine. Particularly since the next war that necessitates such a draft would also more than likely be the end of mankind on this Earth.

As for never ever spent one day earning it? How would you know what they do in their life? All that you ever see is news flashes. You don't watch them day to day and see how they live. Stop pretending you know what their life is like every second of every day. Money is not everything.

 

Ahh, the common talking points of those that like socialism.

Here's what you don't understand about individualism. If the individual is free, then the community is free by default. If the individual takes responsibility for all that they do then the rest of the community is taken care of by default. And on down the line.

As for the EC. That has nothing to do with your thread topic. Why bring it up? I thought the thread was about inequity in money? DOWN WITH THE RICH! THE RICH DON'T NEED ALL THAT MONEY!!!

Another non-sequitur.

Yes. It is. That is literally what it is. No one GIVES money to the government. The government takes it. If you don't give the government money then they will come and charge you with a fine, making you pay even more money. And if you don't pay that you go to jail. It is literally taking money by force. No matter what other words you use that is its essence when you boil it all down. Generally people do not mind taxation so long as it remains confined to the things that the government is supposed to look after. Like roads, postal service, police, fire department etc etc. It's when they start using that money that is not under the governments purview that they start getting angry and if pushed too far may even fight over it.

Like I said, no matter what words you use, when you boil it down, it is still taking money from people.

And it is used for key services in the US. All those services are listed in the Constitution if we're only talking about the federal government.

Yes, it is your right. And it is my right to vote for those that oppose your socialist agenda.

And I understand just fine what "social justice" means. But tell me, who gets to determine what "fair" is? You? Me? What is fair for one, may be unfair to another. And that is why "social justice" is so dangerous. It doesn't actually care about actual fairness. It only cares about its concept of "fairness". When in reality "fairness" is a subjective concept. And SJWs reject anything that doesn't conform to their concept of "fairness".

 

PROFOUND RECTIFICATIONS

Which indicates that what you know about socialism would fit a thimble.

Socialism exists nowhere in the modern world today. It has largely been replaced by what is called a Social Democracy.

For your edification:

Read the above a thousand times until it drills-itself into your head ...

Oh enough of the bollocks.

You don't know what "fair" means when you see it or your don't see it. C'mon, you've got blinders on and the above is a lamentable rebuttal.

We Yanks know very well what is "fair" and what is "unfair" - but for some reason lost in history, we have failed to apply the word to the accumulation of Income into Wealth.

In fact, as regards money, all is fair - short of thievery - to make in the US one Helluva-Lotta-Muney. And, then, we devised a method for manipulating the means of voting in the states to assure that the manner of electing to both the Presidency and a Congress was never altered.

Both Gerrymandering and the Electoral College devolve from the very early years of the Republic. They are antiquated and deceitful mechanisms that manipulate the popular-vote. And why was it thought that the manipulation was necessary? Because "Americans" at the time were migrants from Europe and they were mostly highly uneducated.

Thus they could be easily manipulated in the extant Agricultural Age because migrants were mostly all poor. And the educated all happened to be rich land-owners WHO DID NOT WANT TO SEE THEIR SOURCES OF INCOME CHALLENGED IN ANY WAY SO AS TO THREATEN THEIR FAMILY-WEALTH!

And in America not much has changed - we are no longer in the Agricultural Age and we are exiting the Industrial Age to enter the Information Age - but politically we are essentially the same country with a two-party system that needs profound rectifications ...

 

Depends upon what you mean by "free".

At present, do you think that you are living a free-existence in a country that has just had a PotUS reviewed by the both chambers of Congress on charges leading to destitution of office and, yet, who got off scott-free by a simple majority of his party in the Senate?

I don't - but I'll bet you do! Trump has lived a life of blatant trumpery. And his worst offense is to fail to react to Covid-19 thus allowing the most deaths the country has ever suffered by a massive invasion of a deadly illness.

Just what level is it necessary to see that this individual is INCOMPETENT as PotUS. Huh, what level?

The individual is NOT FREE when his/her main aim in life is to Maximize Income because in doing so they live a distinctively better lifestyle. Which is what they prefer in order to tell-the-world how well they have succeeded. And then they turn around and tell Americans, "See what I did, I'm a billionaire so I deserve to be PotUS!"

And then he loses his chance at the presidency but is made PotUS nonetheless by an archaic manipulation of the popular-vote.

Just what level of chicanery by a PotUS is necessary for you-plural to wake up and understand this individual is Pure Trumpery and deserves destitution and most certain not reelection ... !

Poor Uncle Sam, brought low by this individual who is PotUS despite an electoral misrule that should have been corrected centuries ago ... !

 

Only if the thimble were the size of an oil tanker.

Yes, we hear this with every real world failure of Socialism:

​

When Trump's taxes are finally illegally leaked by a uncharged felon, you'll stand in amazement at how incredible they are.

 

I've seen it. Multiple times. Its the same propaganda. Socialism is supposed to be about The People owning everything (meaning no one really owns anything). To each their own and to each according to their needs. That is the mantra of a socialist. In order for socialism to exist then it must by necessity be of a democratic nature as it is the people that decide what goes where. That is the way it has been since its inception. In other words by its very nature Socialism is Democratic Socialism.

The problem with it is that you need administrators to execute the will of the people. And those people invariably consolidate power and use that power against The People. It's human nature. Power corrupts. And since The People don't actually own anything then they are not able to defend themselves against corrupt people that are power hungry greedy bastards. That is why socialism always fails. Venezuela a few decades ago was a democratic nation. Then it turned into a democratic socialist nation. Now its a dictatorship. And the same has happened multiple times throughout history.

Changing the words used to label socialism and describe it won't take away the stink.

Yeah, our system isn't perfect. But it can be improved. And we're still the freest nation in the world. And capitalism has raised more people out of poverty than any other economic system in history. Those are facts.

 

We will learn so much from his tax returns. Such as how he answered question 19: "Have you ever laundered money?"and question 42: "Are you a Russian asset?"

 

Free is about doing, saying, thinking what you want so long as it does not infringe on other peoples Rights.

I am free to say whatever I want. No one can silence me.
I am free to defend myself. No one can deny me that.
I am free to work my ass off to make money, or am free to live off the land.
I am free to worship, or not worship, any deity that exists...or not worship at all.
I am free to eat whatever I want. Even if its detrimental to me.
I am free to drink whatever I want. Even if its detrimental to me.
I am free to dream.
I am free to act.
I am free to move.
I am free to vote however I want, or not vote at all.
I am free from anyone infringing on my Rights.
I am free to fight for my Rights.

I. Am. Free.

No one keeps me down. If I want to rise up then I do so through my own hard work and determination. If I want to wallow then I will wallow. If I want to complain, then I will complain. If I want to educate myself then I will do so through my own hard work and determination. If I want to stay ignorant then I will do so simply by not listening to anyone or reading anything educational. If I want to take up art then I will do so. If I want to take up biology then I will do so. If I want to take up women's studies then I will do so. If I want to go to the moon, then I may do so through hard work and determination.

I. Am. Free.

All of the above and much more is what being free is about.

It is not about mooching off of others hard work. It is not about taking from one and giving to another. That is not what being free is about. That is what slavery is about.

 

More blah, blah, blah.

Presuming that you are a citizen of the US, then put this notion into your skull: YOUR FREEDOMS END WHERE MINE BEGIN!

And that is typically a matter of common law as passed in the US government. For the moment, all the "freedoms" listed above are the product of your fertile imagination and NOWHERE ARE THEY INCLUDED IN ANY NATIONAL LEGISLATION SPECIFICALLY.

So, dream on - both you and Donald Dork who apparently suffer from the same mental aberrations ...

 

BRAINLESS MENDACITY!

True enough, Socialism has proved itself to be doctrine in name only and is no longer practiced anywhere in the world. (Except perhaps North Korea, which is slowly coming around to the fact that its Fearless Leader has got it all wrong,)

Who are you to judge that you live in the freest nation on earth? This sentiment is the sort of mental delusion (which uses superlatives) to define its childish notion of freedom. (When more than a quarter of the American population are eking out an existence below the Poverty Threshold family-income of $25K a year!)

Down boy! You need to let enter a bit of reality into your life. Your freedoms end where mine begin. And that mutual-rule exists justly for all American citizens. Which is why we have a Congress to define those freedoms - thus expanding or restricting them as necessary.

You're freedoms are not all-encompassing unless the law allows them the be so. Which is why present upper-income taxation is so lax. Your "freedom" to keep upper-income tax-free is an abomination. Nobody should be allowed to either earn or amass such amounts of Net Worth - due simply to the fact that Reckless Ronnie was in DC and applied brainless-mendacity to bring upper-income taxation crashing down when it should have never ever been touched. (See the history of upper-income taxation in this graphic here. Notice particularly what happened to upper-income tax-levels between 1980 and 1988 - Reckless Ronnie's administration!)

Those tax-levels must be readjusted - they must return to previous levels to address the fault of astronomically unfair net-of-tax incomes that have become common in America! There is no reason whatsoever for upper-incomes to earn the billions upon billions of dollars that remain untaxed beyond a pitiful 27.5% (as indicated in this taxation-graphic here).

Selfish individuals such as you deserve lessons in Wealth Fairness and Equitability. And with any luck that fairness will come when we Yanks finally realize the present national taxation rip-off that exists in America at the upper-income levels. Which was thrown upon us-the-sheeple by Reckless Ronnie's administration and allowed such idiots as the present PotUS to make-and-keep the alarming amounts of wealth* they do not deserve ...

*Which is something we shall all learn more about in the coming months as HIS FINANCIAL TAX-CHICANERY COMES UNDER JUDICIAL SCRUTINY AND IS MADE FINALLY PUBLIC!

 

Apparently you didn't read to closely since I stated the same thing right there in the first paragraph.


And that is typically a matter of common law as passed in the US government. For the moment, all the "freedoms" listed above are the product of your fertile imagination and NOWHERE ARE THEY INCLUDED IN ANY NATIONAL LEGISLATION SPECIFICALLY.[/quote]

1st, some of those things actually are written down. You should read the Constitution.
2nd, as the 9th Amendment shows not all rights are written down.
3rd, you show an excellent example of why socialism will not work. I believe that Rights are inherent. You believe that they are just common law able to be overwritten any time the mob wishes it so. Who's more free and less tyrannical? The person who believes that rights are inherent for everyone? Or the person who believes freedom is an illusion that can be overwritten for the "good of the many"?

Thanks for showing exactly why socialism will never work. You seek to restrict freedom. Not expand it.

 

I'm not going to address everything here but I figured you should know that i am a divorced single dad that is making less than that poverty line you mention. Calling me selfish is like calling a cat a fish. My arguement is based on individual rights and not taking from others to support people like me. Even though doing such would probably help me immensely. That is the definition of selflessness. Arguing on behalf of others even to the detriment of oneself.

So you can take your personal potshots and stick them where the sun don't shine because they don't apply to me.

The only one selfish here is you. You are the one that wants to strip individual rights from people in order to achieve your socialistic goal of taking from others. Even using NK as an example. NK, a place that has people starving. A place where one can be put to death for simply eating an old cow that died. And that is just the very tiny tip of all the things wrong with NK.

 

This is a DEBATE FORUM, not a Message Board.

Look up the word "debate", then come back and we can discuss how it is done on this forum. Because you think here is a Message Board and you can say whatever pops into your mind.

Well, no, you shouldn't. Debate is a to-and-fro discussion based upon fact formulated as thoughtful opinion, not emotional one-liners that are about as intellectually interesting as warm-pee.

There is a Big Difference between these two kinds of person-to-person exchanges on the Internet ... !

 

You want a debate then don't call the person you are talking to selfish. Leave the ad hom out.

 

BFD. Been there, done that. Not bad, but it needs a serious update.

Particularly the 12th Amendment that at the time was perhaps a necessity but has become a wonton manipulation of the popular-vote.

As I mentioned earlier - and the novitiates like you do not understand - is that the world changes and NOTHING IS FOREVER. But, people like you (I call them Replicants) cannot change. Because they have learned how to manipulate the Electoral College. The EC was not a bad idea at the time. There were almost no roads interlinking capital cities and getting the vote to DC was difficult. So the EC was devised to help in the matter.

But some very smart-but-dishonest people saw how they could manipulate the popular-vote according to their desires. Among those manipulations are these:
*First-past-the-post voting. This actually destroys votes and gives all the EC-votes to the "winner". The votes for the losers are literally "thrown away". The vote for PotUS thus becomes incomplete nationally because votes were actually destroyed and uncounted. Their place having been take by "EC votes" that go all to the winner. How brazen can a democracy become when it fiddles the numbers?
*The EC vote-number for each state is concocted out of "population data", which is also highly manipulable. Some states with the same population number have more or less than others of the same population size!

Moreover, on the uniquely state-vote, as early as 1812 Gerrymandering was employed. That word was created by means of a redrawing of Massachusetts state&senate election districts under Governor Elbridge Gerry.

What you should know about Gerrymandering (from here):

What you do not seem to understand is that rights are "things" that are variable with time. Any Constitution needs to be changes subsequent to necessities that alter in the course of a nation's history. The sad history in America of Black Voting shows EXACTLY how the law-of-the-land can be manipulated to desired ends. It will take another two decades (they say) for American blacks to have a representation in Congress that is consonant with their voting population.

Socialism has ALREADY PROVEN to be unworkable. Don't you have sense of history and what has been happening in Europe?

A considerable number of the western communist countries have been incorporated into what is called a Social Democracy - otherwise known today as the European Union. That is a state-institution almost half again the population-size of the US. What has been happening right-under-your-nose is what is called a Social Democracy wherein the needs of all the population are considered primary. And thus were upper-incomes are heavily taxed - quite unlike the US!

All of which does not prevent having its multi-millionaires AND a taxation-system that allows for
*National Health Care of the entire population that allows Europeans to have reached an age-span four years more than Americans, aas well as
*Very, very low-cost Tertiary-level Education at a cost from 500/1500 euros per year instead of the US average cost of $14K per year in comparable state-schools of higher learning!

And thank-you for being rabidly blind to the comparative facts. The EU is a far, far better place to live than the US!

Also, find me a country where Socialism is the dominant political regime - the Soviet UNION went under in December of 1991! China has adopted capitalism and thus grown to be the richest country after the USA ... !

 

so your argument is that people that have defrauded charities and committed tax fraud should not be held to the same standards as others because they are a “billionaire”, even though they have never proven this...In other words they are above reproach?

Interesting narrative

 

No, that's your argument, talk to yourself about it.

 

Na, it’s your argument taken from your post. My argument is that all public servants, especially the highest ones, should have complete transparency.