Your believe: Darwin or Creationism?

I can't vote in this thread because only one of these positions requires a belief, the other one is firmly evidenced, and thus requires no belief. I tend to go with the data on this one, and thus not believe in either of them.

 

Well "Creationism" shouldn't even be considered an option. But I do believe that there had to be more to it than just Darwin's theory. Sure random mutations and natural selection played a part sure, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that those alone are responsible for the complex life on the planet. There had to be more to it than that..

Hmm. Perhaps my understanding of this is too simplistic. I should probably take some classes or do more research..

Do some research on it. The data all points to evolution.

 

Well, considering the fact that the Bible is so consistent, and the fact that Darwin renounced his theory by some evidence, or at least had doubts, Creationism.

 

Evolutionary Theory.

Darwinism fell out of favor quite a while ago.

If there is a "God", we certainly can't understand it and I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't give a rat's ass what we do with our lives.

 

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

 

A true stupid ignorant american Faith thunker,faith thunkin the lowest form of human thinking ,none evidence based claptrap.lets see ,evolution explains 15billion years of development ,whereas ,religion explains nothing but have faith in defenders of child abuse.

Creationism dosen't even explain the last 6000 years of history ,in fact it avoids all explainations based on that EVIDENCE THINGY.

 

Well for one thing Evolutionary scientific objectively supported Darwinism is based on EVIDENCE.

whereas creationism is anti-Evidence,nonevidence complete speculation of a Nonsencical nature ,it is pure subjective speculation that runs contrary to science,gee bthe Planet and universe is 6000 years old ??

Ok ,the geological ,fossil ,records are not true even though they surround us everywhere ,even a creationist can see the strata in the rocks that Clearly show everywhere that the earth is Millenia older then 6000years.

oh and we can estimate the time by observing the process as it is happening today ,Now ,yes you can see evolution everywhere open your eys and you can see it feel it ,smell it taste it.

Gee,even creationist stupidity Evolves ,the idea of god evolves ,everything evolves ,BTW ,we create no other species does.

Crickey we even create Gods.

 

Darwins "theory" has become scientific law long ago always vindicated always proved in the scientific practice of biology and genetic science ,whereas creationism fights against evidence based kwoledge ,who created god btw ,oh that would be humans.

Its hard for your creationist types to understand chemistry as well and the link between inorganic and organic Matter,yes life is a chemical reaction essentially ,gee if you put certain amino acids and chemical catalysts together in a test tube you get the Biological building blocks of all life.

DNA,is the product of a CHEMICAL Reaction over time nothing more nothing less.


And all the evolving life in the rest of universe should have a say as well.

 

Excuse me if you go to the periodic table ,you will see a colum with Einsteinium ,and Americianium,and OTHER MANMADE ELEMENTS.Even ones heavier then Plutonium that are pruely synthetic.

www.Periodic-table.net
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...hYXKCQ&usg=AFQjCNEwP1Em3NamPGHU6ClU660BBx-gsA



Called Actinoids even plutonium is man made and manufactured it didn't nor couldn't exist outside of Humans making these Elements ,oh god wasn't present BTW!

not even a Super nova can create any of the Actinoid elements.They only exist here on earth and no where else in all the Universe except were other Intelligent beings exist that is and they DO.

Some of these elements require thermo nuclear devices not God.or is he mixing them up in beakers behind the mushroom cloud?

 

The Bible is consistent? There are flaws on every page!

 

Yes and luckily the more backward tend to inter marry thus assuring their extinction over time.

Inbred fools they already are ,lookmin the bible and 1st cousins are Ok .if you know what i mean ,and in the old testament brothers with sisters and dads with daughters begetting all over the place ,primative people try to resurrect primative practices .

 

I went for Darwin because it was the only option besides Creationism.

I believe there is a God, and that God is Mother Nature. Mother Nature herself created the earth, the sky, the stars, moon, sun, ocean, trees etc, and she continues to create those things even as I type this.

 

I do not believe they are mutually exclusive.

 

I was more going for the fact that there can be a creator God and evolution. Just because a few biblical scholars say the world is 6000 years old doesn't mean its the general consensus of the Christian community. There are many creation theories that coincide with evolution. In fact the Catholic religion (the largest single denomination of Christianity) teaches Evolution in their schools and preaches it in their masses. In this way God and Science don't have to conflict at every turn.

We can create realities too, but those are never challenged.

Evolution takes millions of years, if you can see it happening, you must show me your secrets sir.

 

There should be another choice - "None of the above".
There is order in the universe. The elements interact in precise ways.
As to life one Earth.
I believe it was brought here from elsewhere.
How life in general in the universe.....we will never know and should quit trying to understand that of which we are incapable.

 

Such as? The bible is actually the one of the most if not the most accurate best documented ancient collection of texts in the world bar none. Copies from one century are the same when compared to copies hundreds, sometimes almost a thousand years later, remember this was when EVERYTHING was written by hand, there were no scanner, or copying machines etc. So flaws no. You may be speaking about apparent contractions?

No, not even that, really Mak, you and many other general readers have claimed inconsistency (or flaws). Most of the time a claim of contradiction or flaws are really a misinterpretation or a misreading of scripture. Some passages are tricky, especially to a non-believer. There are other reasons some criticize, usually incorrectly, the bible. For instance a casual reading of the bible would seem to indicate there are lies flaws AND contractions in the bible , however one must realize that the bible is a collection of cherry picked (by a studious scholarly and complicated process*) texts went through a brutal selection process where any suspicious (not valid) texts and books were rejected.

Also, some general lay readers mistake the type of scripture for contradiction. Not many people know unless they are theologians or have completed a lot of self study, that the bible's books are categorize by type (and other systems etc that only stuffy academics are interested in). Sometimes there are different types in each book. Some of the types of scripture are historical, prophetic , song, poem, parable, etc. So I must disagree with you.

By complicated process I meant the Early Church philosophers and fathers such as Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen, Eusebius, Athanasius, Jerome, and Augustine lead in the slow careful acceptance of a book as Scripture. Its almost laughable when I hear someone to say they learned this and that about the bible by popular books such as ; ‘The Da Vinci Code) and others! Jeeze what is the world coming to? Anyway let me just say to save anyone embarrassment who would quote such things that the Church never had a meeting where the Scriptures were autocratically decided upon and then forced upon the rest of the Church and that Constantine the roman emperor who converted to Christianity from paganism chose the books of the bible for political reasons etc . Lastly the REAL history of how the books got into the bible reads like a John Grisham novel
combined with a Steven King thriller. By real history I mean a accurate account of the history not tainted by malicious atheists with an agenda. Don’t get me wrong Mak , I respect moderate atheists just as much as I do moderate Muslims or any group of people, I simply detest (an understatement) jerks with an vested interest in harming someone’s belief or person.

Here is a excellent read on what The theologian and philosopher Josephus has to say about the validity of the old testament; http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_Bible_Josephus_Moses.

reva

 

I don't understand how God can be excluded from evolution. I do not believe in the Genesis myth, but I do believe in God. And I further believe that God endowed mankind with the capacity to ferret out the truth by science. How can some Bronze Age philosopher be the only means to understanding the origins of life? If you believe that the Bible is literal truth and the word of God, you must believe that those who wrote the Bible and later edited it were endowed with truths and laws and understandings that are both infallible and elusive to all other men's understandings.

Further, all those laws must be upheld and followed. Should we then not wear cotton/polyester blended fabrics? Should we never have a cheeseburger? Should we abolish football because involves a pig's skin?

I think the only reason some continue to hold the Genesis myth as truth is arrogance. Some folks are too arrogant to admit that they themselves as human beings are indeed mammals. As all other species are susceptible to the effects of evolution (check the fossil record) so to are humans.

 

Why is it that people have trouble believing in the probability that random mutations along the evolutionary line eventually resulted in the flora and fauna that we see today but have no problem believing it was all created by an omnipotent metaphysical being that has always existed and for which there is no real evidence outside of ancient texts and God of the Gaps stuff. To me, it seems much more probable, even if that probability is small, that we are more or less accidents of mutation as opposed to the happy convenient story being told by religious people about the beginning of the universe. That story is just too perfect. it doesn't mesh at all with the known world which is decidedly imperfect, chaotic, dangerous, and directionless.

I think the big bang and the resulting physics created at that point are what is responsible for the entire universe being the way it is. What "caused" the big bang, or what created the energy it resulted from, is all that's left up in the air for me. I see absolutely positively no reason why I should believe an omnipotent conscious being created it as opposed to that energy always existing, or that the universe has expanded and contracted and will do so for infinity. Why does it make more sense for God to have always existed but not energy or the universe? Why can God have no "beginning" but nothing else can?

 

Why not both? If God created everything and Darwin's theory is correct, did not God create the possibility?

 

A lot of people confuse religion with the belief in god. I believe in God as the creator of this universe and that he designed it to produce us as the pinnacle of creation. However my Christian belief is religion which simply assigns attributes to God. Personally I searched a long time for truth trying atheism to Levay Satanism. When I began having to rationalize why I was practicing a certain religion I abandoned it. Anyway I chose each after researching them, Christianity is no exception. I feel it has the best chance of being correct for many reasons, and evidences. I am too tired to go into detail now.

Somewhat true. The majority of Christian leaders and teachers would agree with your statement. However I believe there is wiggle room in most scripture, and that anyone can understand the bible with a little effort.

That is true in some cases.

Should we not fornicate with that pig? Should we not murder be greedy or steal? Some bible was written as practical advice for the day. Eating pork is unhealthy especially if trichinoses is not known about. Perhaps God was giving them divine advice along with practical health advice in a covert manner, ie paranormal (advanced knowledge ie a warning about the parasite).

I think to each his own. Some atheists are bigots and jerks as are some Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Wicca’s, agnostics, skeptics ....almost infinite regressive list of can be bigots jerks etc!

Evolution has problems, there is not enough earthly time for the taxonomy, by that I mean the different creatures or types of life to emerge and to evolve. The latest excuse for different claims of evolutionists time line is punctuated Equilibrium. Awful funny stuff that. Evolution changes to fit the emerging evidence resulting in those that do not doubt the claims of science are living a lie. That is not too bad in most instances but how would you of liked to be a professor that based his life’s work on the Piltdown man, that fraud (one of many) lasted OVER 40 years! How many people believed and defended to the death Piltdown, living a lie, teaching a lie to young minds ... how many respected academics were ruined when the truth came out? The truth is science as much as I love it is like a good con game. One never knows if he bases his reality on the claims of science if his reality is a falsehood.

reva

ps a quote;

" In the past 25 years, Eldredge and Gould have proposed so many different versions of their theory that it is difficult to describe it with any accuracy. If a scientific theory is to be of any value as a tool for exploring the real world, it must have some stability as a set of propositions open to empirical test. Punctuated equilibrium has undergone so many transformations that it is hard to distinguish its core of truth from the "statement that morphological evolution sometimes occurs episodically."

The above quotation by Jerry A. Coyne and Brian Charlesworth, Department of Ecology and Evolution, University of Chicago, just sayin'

 

Biblical law was written to reinforce common sense. You're a desert people. Nomadic. No means of refrigeration. Eat pork? Risk the chances of contaminated dairy and fish at the same time? Probably a bad idea. But what better way of enforcing that than saying it's God's law? Perfect to quash dissent.

And if you want to establish an orthodoxy concerning the origin of mankind, write that as God's law too.

Well, modernity throws off orthodoxy like a snake shedding its skin. Inquisitive mankind will notsatisfiedfied with mythology. Mankind devised the scientific method and has challenged the orthodoxy ever since. Galileo challenged it and suffered house arrest. Orthodoxy has its ways of enforcing itself.

 

Oopsie, I posted your reply (RR) in another thread that was similar to this one, ie 'Does anyone think they have evdience for the existance of God'...I am going to copy and paste it here due to I am short on time, however the quote brackets and such will be whacky. If you can not make sense of it I will fix it sorry for any inconvience;



River Rat (RR)>>>>> Biblical law was written to reinforce common sense. You're a desert people. Nomadic.

reva>>>>I can agree with that as a partial answer. However the bible was not in every household, or even in every ‘neighborhood’ because it had not been yet published, and other factors, ie illiteracy etc. I suppose you mean oral tradition from which the bible was written? Of course being a theist I believe some of the bible was written and revealed by means not known to science even today, well perhaps science has touched on paranormal events explained by quantum processes such as entanglement and quantum brain functions to name a few of many likely suspects. I won’t comment on the nomadic people quote, not knowing exactly the time* or the area or the people* you reference.

*Time = Were you referencing the era of Abraham or Jesus or ? When you referenced 'the people' did you mean Jesus’ time or did you mean the Nomadic ‘Israelites’ ie or the people led by Moses etc ?

RR>>>>No means of refrigeration. Eat pork? Risk the chances of contaminated dairy and fish at the same time? Probably a bad idea. But what better way of enforcing that than saying it's God's law? Perfect to quash dissent.

reva...I will play the devils advocate by saying pork was considered unclean in many areas of Egypt and the near/middle east even before the mosaic laws were created, certainly way before the bible was complied or published (thousand of years). Not playing the DA, Most of the people probably knew without the punishment of God that pork was risky due to no pork bones being found in large areas. Archeologists do however track ancestors of the Israeli’s by plotting the excavations that have no pork bones on a graph.I will say that I have no reason to disagree with your claims, however they do not lend evdience that I was wrong. I was just speculating anyway. The trouble is that supernatural events have no empirical backed proof only evidence, such as eyewitness accounts etc.

RR>>>>>And if you want to establish an orthodoxy concerning the origin of mankind, write that as God's law too.

reva>>>>Again I agree that that is only an assumption that may have evidence to support it in religions other than Christianity. If not for religion we would probably never had advanced nearly as quickly as we did with the organizational power of mass spirituality. There would have been no pyramids in Egypt or south America no social glue to hold together populous cities. However maybe hunter gatherers working together as a group would have occurred, but larger groups were enabled by such things as organized religion.

RR>>>>>Well, modernity throws off orthodoxy like a snake shedding its skin.

reva>>>>>Ha ha lol…I would argue against that! Its been five thousand years or 100,000 > 1,000,000+ years if you count modern man as point to begin. Now look at a map or a spread sheet naming the religions and the population of each. Islam and Christianity alone has about four billion believers. Add the rest and the number increases to near seven billion people. Not exactly throwing off orthodoxy to my eyes. And taken as a whole the number is increasing! This is in 2012!

RR>>>>>Inquisitive mankind will not satisfiedfied with mythology.

reva>>>>>Disagree, for various reasons. In fact man will increase in needs of spirituality even if for the wrong reasons. As the world civilizations suffer the pains of old age, the people will reach out for God. Even now when a series of disasters happen a large percentage of the population blame God.

RR>>>>>>>Mankind devised the scientific method and has challenged the orthodoxy ever since. Galileo challenged it and suffered house arrest. Orthodoxy has its ways of enforcing itself.

Reva >>>>> You probably only know the censored version of Galileo history lol. There was a lot more to it than the church crushing a poor little guy trying to sell his books. Remember the time it happened. The church of the inquisition and earlier was not the church of today! It was a government as well as a church, mostly government for all intensive purposes. The Church did rule with an iron hand but used a grossly un-Christian method to do so. However what it decreed was the 'law' of the land. Just like today if someone threatens the status quo of some governments they will be jailed or worse, disappear. An arrogant Galileo challenged the church like not unlike some uppity secular scientists do today, however the power situation was reversed and Mr Galileo suffered the consequences of his questionable I would say silly actions. The history of Galileo’s troubles with authority is far more involved and you should read the true history of what really happened. In the way I view it the church and religion including the ancient religious and spiritual people advanced science more than any other single factor. In fact its my belief if the scientific method had adopted Metaphysics as per Gödel as model with positive science as a lesser partner, we would be much more advanced today.

reva.

 

How is Darwinism a fluke? It's non random.

 

I believe Jesus and the dinosuars lived at the same time. I could prove it but, dang, there just ain't no engravings anywhere.

 

Thanks you for a most enlightening and thorough response.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not refuting faith. I just think that the Bible makes a lousy textbook. While filled with beautiful poetry, insightful parables and divine wisdom, the geology, biology, astronomy, anthropology and physics presented in the Bible do not meet the threshold of modern scientific scrutiny in all cases. And when I said inquisitive mankind will throw off orthodoxy, I refer to the peculiar american relationship with spirituality. The Puritans strove for conformity to ensure the viability of their colony. But that was a repudiation of the Protestant ethic of an individual relationship with God. And so dissenters of the Puritan orthodoxy exercised their political and religious freedom found here in the new World and split from the system. Evangelists split from Anglicans, Presbyterians and the Methodists started their whole system of beliefs.

Time and time again, dissenters sought truth and light where orthodoxy provided only stability and conformity. I think there are still some of those fearful of the capacity of the wisdom and inquisitiveness endowed by god upon mankind. To challenge the mythology of the Genesis story is not to refute the existence of God, but a celebration of the brain pan He provided.