Was Jesus God?

The whole "one substance - homoousios" thing was made doctrine by Constantine for his own political purposes.

To the people of that time there were two types of substances .. that which was of God . .and that which all other things was made of.. men, Angels, trees, dirt and so forth.

The Early Church Fathers did not believe that Jesus and God were of the same substance. Jesus was believed to be subordinate to the Father .. even by those who believed he was a God.

It was not until the beginning of the third century that the Trinity doctrine was spoken of .. by Tertullian.. and the Church declared this doctrine heresy.

The Trinity doctrine was a smart way of dealing with some problems that were vexing the Church at the time .. and that is it.

It has no basis in reality as related to what the Church actually believed for the first 3 centuries of its existence.

 

OK, you say: "We believe: Jesus is god and man."

Now why do you believe that when you have zero first hand evidence that such an entity existed? On top of that Jesus never did do anything godly. If he was still wiggling on the cross you might have point. If you really had faith in your belief you could tell a shrub, tree, or mountain to uproot itself and jump into the sea and it would. So you may say that you believe it but based on the standard that he gave not one person in 2,000 years has ever really believed it.

 

You don't understand - feel - what this means. It's not amazing that Jesus is god - it's amazing that god is Jesus. Are you able to be the song you are singing, the picture you are painting, the ... ?

http://youtu.be/nTCuQ5FzhYg

 

Shows exactly that the will of Jesus was the will of god, isn't it? Their will was the same - but as a human being Jesus suffered.

http://youtu.be/K8DRP3O22Xk

----- Matthew 26:36-46

Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, 'Sit here while I go over there and pray.' He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, 'My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.' Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.' Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. 'Couldn't you men keep watch with me for one hour?' he asked Peter. 'Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.' He went away a second time and prayed, 'My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.' When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, 'Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!'

-----

 

What is amazing is that anyone that has read the Bible or even heard of the crucifixion story believes that Jesus is God.

From the Bible we know that God wishes humans (or at least the Israelites) to worship him over other Gods and that he wants certain of his laws to be followed.

Assuming God is a rational being and has even a minimal understanding of the humans he created, why would he then choose such an unbelievable way "crucifixion" to get his message across ?

I use the term "unbelievable" because almost no one at the time believed it .. and for God reason.

It would have been far more believable if God would have just got down from the cross and said .. "look people" .. "clearly you can see that I am God" .. followed by a few miracles .. "and I want you to worship me and follow these laws"

But no .. rather than do this God does things that would encourage people not to believe that he (as Jesus) really was God.

First: God dies .. can God die ?
Second: God allows himself to be crucified by the Romans .. Is God a masochist ?

Third: God starts rambling nonsense to himself while on the cross "My God .. why have you forsaken me" .. did God get delusional on the cross and start talking to himself as if he was not God ?

What is amazing is that anyone would believe that this delusional masochist hanging on the cross was God ?

What is even more amazing is that God would think that rational humans would believe such a thing as there is nothing "Godly" for people to believe. (Perhaps God is going after the irrational folks .. who knows ?)

One thing I will say is that this trend "believing in the irrational" seems to be in keeping with God's plan.

Creation 6000 years ago .. and the flood story.. are completely contradicted by everything we know about science, history, and so forth.

If indeed these things did happen the way they are recorded in the Bible, then God must have gone to alot of trouble to make these things unbelievable to a modern human by covering up any evidence that these events happened.

God would have had to have messed with geology, paleontology, biology, climate and so forth. He must have planted dinosaur bones, put drawings on caves, created the layers in the polar ice caps and coral reefs .. and eliminated all traces of a Global flood.. all in an effort to convince people that the Bible was wrong.

If God wanted people to believe the Bible story, then why would he undertake such massive efforts to convince people that the Bible was wrong ?

Some claim "it was the Devil" that did these things .. but this does not work because God would still be complicit by creating the Devil and allowing him to do such things. It is still God's handiwork either way.

 

no comment

http://youtu.be/K7IsLbtlj_c

 

I think that passed the "Market Street' test


Not even a nob sitter, could comment with so much to chew on.



That was Fine post.

 

Actually it shows just the opposite. You're welcome.

 

That's a ridiculous assumption,you are splitting hairs.

 

If you think so. Why did you replace "isn't it" with "doesn't it" in my words?

http://youtu.be/mwRMT2_pi9c

 

Even if God and Jesus existed, so what? Jesus never did do anything godly. His message is weak. So why worship him?

 

What would be godly in your opinion?

Also, what was weak about his message?

 

No, he was not God.
Also he never elevated himself to the equal of God. As he new the ramifications to himself if he did.
He was a Son of God and we will leave it at that.(for the time being)

 

If Jesus had tossed a mountain into the sea as he said people with faith can do it would have been impressive. Or if he was still wiggling on the cross after 2,000 years.

Do you really think that a third of the stars will fall to Earth as he said?

He said that he was sent to just the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So if you aren't one of that group why do you think whatever he said applies to you? Have you cut off any of your body parts to keep from sinning?

 

¿So what? Hmm - you'll never become a philosopher I fear.

So let it be what you never had done.

http://youtu.be/CGd9TqjhANI

 

He was only one of a mountains of people who died as criminals on a cross to near an unsatiably sea of blood. We forgot them all - we forgot even this sea - but not him.

http://youtu.be/Qt8MOG1k2Q0

 

@The Wyrd of Gawd

Sorry: "to near" is nearly wrong - I thought about "to feed" [an unsatiably sea of blood]

http://youtu.be/PVoF1rKLIFo

 

There are a lot of characters in the Bible. IMO Jesus is sub-par to a lot of them.

 

Jesus was a student of Stoicism and of Socrates (not directly, but philosophically), as were many that came after. He used post-socratic logic and also taught the same anthropological reasoning that Socrates himself did.

...and, like Socrates, died for the same exact reason, in a much similar way, while being persecuted by much similar people. Fortunately, for Socrates, his legend was not transformed into myth to near the degree that Jesus' was. Had Socrates been alive today to see that he was turned into the same figure that Jesus was, he'd have walked the streets of the entire planet telling people the truth to the contrary until his heart gave out. I expect Jesus would do the same.

It really is a dishonor to Jesus to credit his accomplishments to an imaginary unproven God, when they were in fact his own.

Fact is, Jesus was a philosopher. A devoted and courageous one. If you pay attention to the accounts of his character, and not the myths that surround him, you'll see that everything he did was an effort to follow the 4 cardinal/chief virtues, Wisdom, Courage, Justice, and Moderation (resistance of emotions when they over-power logic and reasoning). He lived during a time when this was a very high-minded and well known philosophy, and tried to spread it in a place more primitive and needing of such inspiration. He was killed by Jews for preaching a new set of values apart from their traditional ways. Then they plagiarized and slandered him by making him one of them, to steal his influence, and confiscate his supporters, as history is written by the victorious. His disciples desperately made him into something more than what he was in an attempt to make his teachings and influence live on, as they have.

But the truth is the truth, civilization is not the primitive mess it once was. If you really wish to honor Jesus and his teachings, don't join that mob that he targeted, join the enlightened following that he and Socrates hoped to create.

 

Well, thats a nice opinion. But that is all that is.
From what we know of Jesus, if we are to accept the Bible as true, then we can surmise He was God incarnate. He was God made man, although He himself never actually said He is God, He alludes to it. He ensures we know He is unique and not any ordinary man. Jesus was much more than a man who had good ideas on how we should live our lives. He was not just a philosopher. If Jesus is not God incarnate then He would be a meglamaniac, however we know this cannot be true either as He shows great consideration for others and is not completely self-centred.
You have seemed to look at things about Jesus and said this is true but this is not. I seriously doubt His disciples would have elevated Jesus to that of god incarnate just so his philosophical outlook would continue on.

 

I have a little the feeling it could be you don't believe that Jesus the Christ is true god from true god. Could it be you are not a Christian?

http://youtu.be/hDdeNwlJ44U

 

I believe the Bible is completely Christ centred.

 

In the middle ages - 'dark ages' is often an expression in the english speaking world - the 'slaves' worked 4 days a week for their own wealth - 2 days for the 'state' - and 1 day they did not work but celebrate for 'the church'. 1/3 of a year were holy days. ... In Germany today more about 2/3 of a year the people are working for the state - but the people have also to pay for lots of things of daily life. 50% of all Germans own 99% of all assets - what means the other 50% own 1% of all assets. ... We are primitive ...

http://youtu.be/PuTUun8Mlq0

 

I would compare Jesus Christ more with Epicurus ('everyone is welcome who likes to search for happyness') but he's not wrong. Jesus was also a philosopher. He often said something like "Why do you ask me - use your own ability to think". Everyone has to search for the right ways. To be a philosopher means nothing else than to be a friend of the truth. Is not everyone who tries to speak in the name of the truth our friend? I remember in this context the word of Jesus:

'Teacher,' said John, 'we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.' 'Do not stop him,' Jesus said. 'No-one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly be rewarded. http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4591201/Celtic_Woman_the_Voice

 

What, nothing from the Torah saying he was?

Jesus was neither the messiah (which will be a man, not some sort of demi-god), nor was he God incarnate.