First the timeline and some information. The elected Shura Council chose the members of the CA not Morsi. Because the country voted and chose who they wanted the upper and lower houses had a majority of Islamists. That's democracy. I'm not MB or an Islamist as it's defined here, and I support this because I believe in democracy even though it might not be my choice. This is something the Anti Morsi's need to learn. That word democracy. Each CA meeting was live on TV so every Egyptian had the chance to watch EVERY session being discussed in detail. It was fully transparent. I would guess that less than 1% watched these sessions. The CA had about 18 constitutional judges, legal experts on it. There were 100 on the CA and 100 cannot possibly represent every layer in the society which is one of the things that the anti Morsi's are shouting about. They wanted from what I can see a more huge CA with just about every layer involved which is not realistic. The last Constitution had 32 people drafting it. So keep that in mind. Most of the main articles were agreed upon by last month with a few exceptions. The last month was spent arguing and none of the parties could agree and they asked for more time to be added to argue more. Morsi issued a decree because he could not add more time unless he done it by decree and gave them 60 more days. As soon as he done that the ones arguing for more time resigned. Keep that in mind also. That left the the remaining ones and since the ones asking for more time left when they got it added on, the others decided to finish the draft on time and forget about the added time. That is what they done. Kholief I'd like you to read what I am writing and since you are living in the same Egypt as me and are Egyptian please share if you agree or disagree with me. I value your opinion since you live the reality here and know what is really going on. Any Anti islamic, off topic, or cursing posts will be ignored and I hope that the moderators will be vigilant in this. I doubt it but I can hope. I want this to be a debate about the reality on the ground and not the media driven reality out there.
Recent Timeline Since the decree there have been protests. We all saw them on TV. The last few weeks have been continuous protests. They have closed Tahrir Sq which is a big headache and affected the businesses and the museum tourists who cannot go there now. Their protests have affected the issuing of visas and other legal things because they have set up camp right outside the Mogamma building where all the legal things are done disrupting many things as a lot of legal things have to be done in Cairo and people traveling hundreds of miles from the villages in upper Egypt are finding they cannot get their transactions done. Many of these are poor and cannot afford hotels to stay in the city. These things are not shown on your TV screens. Ordinary Egyptians like me are avoiding Downtown because of the risk of safety and the clashes and thugs. When the protests started there was a lot of fighting. The MB stayed away and the fighting was mainly between the anti Morsi's and the police and army around the side streets, the US embassy, the area called garden City, the corniche , the Maspero were all blocked to traffic. Anyone knowing Cairo knows any disruption to traffic is a complete hell. Many Egyptians are sick of the constant disruptions to traffic and businesses. The bits you wont see reported on TV are the looting of the cars, the sexual assaults, the vandalism, the burning of schools etc that is caused by their protesting. Keep that in mind when I take you to Ethadeya later. To show that Morsi had support the pro Morsi supporters organised a demo and they held it the other side of the Nile away to avoid any clashes, it went peacefully and they went back home that night. The anti Morsi's kept up with their sit in in Tahrir. What we see in the last few days is a lessening of support for the anti Morsi's. I said this a few days ago because of all the chaos they have caused and the destruction. They targeted MB offices now. Burning them to the ground. 4 so far. The organisers like El B needed to keep the momentum up so decided to move to the palace. This is what you are seeing now. The palace is in Heliopolis a wealthy neighbourhood which is not used to this mess and protests. Quite a distance from Tahrir. The anti Morsi protesters now are all causing chaos in Heliopolis and the residents are not happy at all. The Anti Morsi's have written curses and bad language all over the walls of the long wall of the palace. In our culture cursing is very bad. Do not assume we tolerate cursing in any form. You will rarely every hear cursing in Egypt and you would especially not hear disrespect from minors to elders. That is our culture. Cursing to us is anti islamic and low class and is quite rare.. The curses on the walls and the language used by the Anti Morsi's enraged the ordinary Egyptians. The videos of the language shouted to Morsi as he left the palace was intolerable and sadly something that some youth have now adopted from the West and alien to our culture. This made the ordinary Egyptians mad. The MB decided to evict these thugs from outside the palace and along with the residents who now see their nice area being turned into the next anti Morsi battlefield joined them. If you think they are all MB think again. The residents of Heliopolis do not want their cars burned or looted, their gardens destroyed and their streets torn up and a good proportion fighting the anti Morsi's were ordinary Heliopolis citizens. They are protecting their community and area. Rory Challands was covering it last night on TV and said the ones outside the palace ( Islamists and residents) were peaceful, and the fringes where anti Morsis from Tahrir with a front line of Ultras the football youth holligans who were fighting the police. To say it is peaceful anti Morsi protesters being beaten up by the others is not reality. In fact many calls were coming in from the anti Morsi's saying that they were not interested in the decree or constitution but the downfall of Morsi and they said that was their aim and they would not stop till they did that. The TV channels broadcast them.
Mayerling has said her she voted Shafik. Mubaraks regime. Yes it is true many out there who are anti Morsi want Shafik to take over. It's no secret that Shafik and others are funding the clashes and want Egypt back to the ex regime. There are many that will end up in courts and will fight to the death to stay out of them. There is no doubt that Shafik and Co are planning a lot of the destruction etc the clashes. The rest of us do not want that. I want them all in court and that is why I am backing Morsi. Another interesting thing last night. I was watching a debate on TV last night where an army retired Major General said something interesting. He said that he would not say the country BUT we would know who he meant. They were talking about islamists. He said that these radicals ( salafists) were not following Islam, they were not Muslims which was very strong language for public TV!!!! He said that when in our history did we ever see our soldiers being killed in Sinai by radicals? His exact words were. "This is coming from our East, from the East into our land Sinai" This was an army major general saying that the radicalism affecting North Sinai and killing our troops was coming from Saudi. He went on to say that these radicals whose brains were washed are infiltrating our society. We all know that is true but to hear someone at that level say it was amazing.
Two more points to make. El Baradei is very close to being arrested. I think he would have been last night but the President has halted it for now because that would just inflame the situation more. He made a public statement on live TV saying that his opposition supporters the Salvation front which includes Amr Mousa and Hamdeen Sabahi etc "Would use all measures to stop the going forward of the constitution draft and decree" Note "all measures"!!! Most Egyptians are used to that language from Americans and Israeli's when they talk about "any measures deemed necessary'" " all options on the table". To hear that kind of incitement to violence coming from El Baradei was a wake up call to a lot of Egyptians last night. Not only that from the same group a call to "mount the walls and remove Morsi bodily from the office". I don't know how your media is covering that but that is a real issue here. Last point I was listening to Reverend Andrea Zaki the VP of the Egyptian Protestant Churches. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Zaki He said some interesting things. He said that the clashes outside the palace last night were not religious motivated, were not anti Islam. They were political. Not all pro Morsi's are Muslims. He also said that the churches are united in saying the people will choose yes or no to the draft in the referendum and they must not boycott that right to vote. Maybe he should have a meeting with the anti Morsi thugs and tell them that
I think this article puts the situation well http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0411.hirsh.html
Based on your commentary I can only conclude that you are uncomfortable with democracy and how it works. What it means is that even those who disagree with you, even Marabak's old supporters, have an equal shot at being elected, at voicing their opinions. You are too heavily invested in the new regime to be able to see clearly and so you are insisting that only one other poster - who coincidentally you hope will agree with you - may state his view. You dismiss Mayerling and her concerns, quickly calling her a Marabak supporter. You will need to be tolerant of other views and hear people or risk their anger.
Your first post is mostly spot on , I agree with most of what you said . I even thought it was strange (still do) that all of the liberal and christian parties pulled out of the constitutional assembly over a few minor articles that were still up for dispute. As for the second post , the Heliopolis residents aren't pissed with the anti Morsi protesters because most of them are anti Morsi protesters.Tuesday's protest were mostly made up of Heliopolis residents , if you ask them you ask them you'll find that most of them are angry with and blame the MB and their militias for the clashes. My opinion is that the MB are mostly to blame for last night's violence letting their youth militias out was a mistake on their part they should have weathered the storm and avoided all confrontations. Basically I think this is a power struggle with the MB having the upper hand and the liberals acting as the disruptive force , I'm not taking any sides on this dispute it's to complex , complicated and from my vantage point shady with most of the struggle taking place behind closed doors. I'm going to avoid all and any fettan and just read the constitutional draft if I like it I'll vote yes if not no.
Arresting El Baradei would be like trying to stop a fire that's out of control by pouring oil on it, if the MB start arresting opposing politicians they won't survive the backlash.
Obviously not. You cannot arrest opposition members and expect to be considered a democracy. Why is that so hard for some to understand? Seems very logical to me. Do the Egyptians know what democracy is?
There's this old law wish states that people that are intentionally disrupting national unity are liable to arrest . I think they could arrest opposition figure heads using it though if they do they'd be screwing themselves more than the opposition.
This old law is not a democratic one. Being entitled to arrest people "disrupting national unity" has no palce in democracy. There is no such thing as national unity - everyone is enetitled to support the party he choses to support. I agree that by arresting opposition members they will be putting the nail in their coffin. The people can see it for what it is.
Yep and under the new constitution it's going to be removed, the thing is the new constitution has yet to be officially put in place.
I can see it is "going to be removed" at some point in the future, so let's just go for it now....LOL No wonder Morsi is being tossed. Makes total sense to say something that must be abolished is pretty darn handy right now.
I forgot to add that an anti Morsi called Salma who is well know activist was interviewed on Al Jazeera last night and was saying the MB were firing guns at them and shooting them. She was hiding in a building to escape the shootings. The anchor asked Rory Challands who was in the centre of the MB right outside the palace and said it was peaceful and he could hear shots from the fringes where the anti Morsi Ultras were on the El Baradei's front line but did not know who was shooting. HERE is who was shooting and who had the guns!!!!! It was not the MB as the El B and his battalions were saying! It was the anti Morsi thugs as usual and here is the proof. [video=youtube;-MyKIvddvac]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MyKIvddvac&feature=youtu.be[/video]
Great article ! This extremism we are seeing today is fueled by Saudi and this is what the major General is saying.
and they did and they lost....................Morsi was elected wrong I want the view of another Egyptian who lives here who knows our culture the only other is Mayerling who is American and supports the old regime Mayerling does not deny that and wants the old system back, she voted Shafik and return to Mubarak regime
Morsi was elected on a democratic ballot and not to abolish the powers of the judiciary. And BTW protests of elected officials are totally in line with democracy. hence the need for courts Mayerling has never called for the old regime, she is just honest enough to report as to what isn't working.
The danger in any revolution, once a new group is in power, is the temptation to ram through their agenda at top speed and to use whatever means are necessary to achieve those ends. It is hardly undemocratic to point out that Mursi and the Muslim Brotherhood seem to be succumbing to that temptation.
yes very strange that I did not say they were pro Morsi. I said that they were defending their property in Heliopolis with the MB and this morning we can be sure that they will not be wanting the anti Mubaraks back in their area, The place is like a battle field with infrastructure destroyed. The clashes on Tuesday were between the security services and the Anti Morsi's. There were no MB there. What do you mean by militias. That's the word I heard many times last night being used by the anti Morsi's like Salma. YET the video shows that the anti Morsi's were the ones shooting the guns. Rory Challands was in the middle of the MB outside the palace and he said it was all peaceful there and the clashes were against the ULtras and MB on the fringes. Where they were being shot at. I agree with you in some way the MB should have let the anti Morsi's carry on and stayed out of it. That way when they climbed the wall and tried to infiltrate the palace the MB would be clear away from the situation and the army would have them shot them dead. Maybe the MB stopped that happening in a way. Yes I agree with you. That's what we should all be doing instead of this madness and what I have been saying all along. The disruption by the Anti Morsi's needs to stop. They all need to go home now
I know and that is why they wont at the moment but I can see in the future when these clashes are before the courts after all this is over El B etc will be arrested for incitement.
How do your courts and your riot police and the ones on Occupy Wall St and in London deal with rioting/rioters/ the ones calling on Facebook and Twitter to incite violence and rioting ? Would your laws allow one hour of what you see the last 2 weeks? Schools being burned down? shooting police? How does your 'democracy' deal with this situation?
Then what about the MB figure heads that when on twitter and Facebook and the media, publicly calling for all their followers to go to Heliopolis and 'protect the president' shouldn't they also be arrested before El Baradie ?
