The Most Violent Gun Crime States Have Two Things In Common

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Backtothefront, Jan 6, 2013.

  1. Backtothefront

    Backtothefront New Member

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    Really, that's all you have is to attack a phone's auto-spell mistake? :lol:

    Though it's expected as you have nothing to rebuttal with from the facts I presented. You will still live in your delusional right wing fantasy land,....
     
  2. theunbubba

    theunbubba Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Autospell doesn't make that kind of mistakes.
    I don't feel a need to answer your microcephalic screed. Trolling is not for forums. It's supposed to be a fishing technique.
     
  3. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    The most dangerous cities in America have very strict gun laws.

    1. Camden, New Jersey (Population 77, 344) (17.59% Caucasian, 48.07% African American, 34.34% Other Race) ($27,027)

    2. Detroit, Michigan (Population 713,777) ( 10.6% Caucasian, 82.7% African American, 6.7% Other Race) ($25,787)

    3. Atlanta, Georgia (Population 420,003) ( 38.4% Caucasian, 54% African American, 7.6% Other Race) ($35,453)

    4. St. Louis, Missouri (Population 319,294) ( 43.9% Caucasian, 49.2% African American, 6.9% Other Race) ($29,159)

    5. Gary, Indiana (Population 80,294) ( 11.92% Caucasian, 84.03% African American, 4.05% Other Race) ($27,195)

    6. Washington, DC (Population 617,996) ( 38.5% Caucasian, 50.7% African American, 10.8% Other Race) ($55,755)

    7. Hartford, Connecticut (Population 124,775) ( 18.72% Caucasian, 40.05% African American, 41.23% Other Race) ($20,820)

    8. New Orleans, Louisiana (Population 343,829) ( 33% Caucasian, 60.2% African American, 6.8% Other Race) ($24,929)

    9. Richmond, Virginia (Population 204,214) ( 41.6% Caucasian, 52.3% African American, 6.1% Other Race) ($31,121)

    10. Birmingham, Alabama (Population 212,237) ( 35.07% Caucasian, 62.46% African American, 2.47% Other Race) ($26,735)


    The most violent cities also have higher populations of Blacks. Does that mean we should get rid of Blacks? No, of course not. The premise of the argument in the OP fails.
     
  4. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I knew you wouldn't just straight up answer the question.

    heres some simple logic for you.

    In the entire state of Wyoming there were a total of 21 homicides in 2012.

    Baltimore had 216
    Detroit had 411
    Chicago had 532

    Do I need to go on or are you seriously so blinded by the race card that you can't see the full blown logic here...
     
  5. Backtothefront

    Backtothefront New Member

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    All those cities have concealed/open carry except for DC, which the right wingers say stops violence/gun crimes.. Though this topic is about states not cities.
    Plus chicago is no where on there, I thought the right wingers said chicago was the worst crime city in the nation?
     
  6. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    You can dislike the post all you want to but you cannot deny simple logic.

    Where are you more likely to get murdered. Cheyenne Wyoming or New Orleans Louisiana? I mean this seriously isn't hard what part of this are you not understanding?
     
  7. Backtothefront

    Backtothefront New Member

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    You are trying to cherry pick sheer numbers, rather than the correct way to have a comparison which is how many residents there are compared to murders to get a ratio statistic which my link uses.

    This is what fox is doing as well trying to screw the facts to mislead the sheep. 532 (which was not the number of how many were killed in 2012 in chicago BTW,...) looks to be a large number, though when you factor in 2.7 million people live in chicago, that statistic is extremely small.
     
  8. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Wyoming has a total population of an estimated 570,000. 21 people were murdered there in 2012 and thats the ENTIRE state btw. murder rate.
    Baltimore has a total population of an estimated 651,000. 216 people were murdered there in 2012. Thats ONE city.

    Hows that for ratios.
     
  9. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Chicago gets a dishonorable mention:

    Chicago, Illinois (Population 2,695,598 ) (45.0% Caucasian, 32.9% African American, 22.1% Other Race) ($38,625)

    To read about how Chicago hit 500 homicides in 2012 to achieve the highest murder rate in the world click here:
    http://americanlivewire.com/chicago-hits-500th-murder-for-2012/
    I guess their ridiculous gun control laws are not working too well for them.

    If an individual city wants to have to resort to gun control to deal with its ridiculous out of control crime problems and high population of ethnic minorities, I don't have a problem with that. People can move out of the city if they really do not like it. The problem is when gun grabbers want to force their senseless laws onto an entire country.
     
  10. theunbubba

    theunbubba Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your OP can only be described as picking dingleberries. It smelled worse than a sewer plant.
     
  11. Backtothefront

    Backtothefront New Member

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    More 3rd grader type insults from a right wing troll that is throwing a tantrum because you can't handle the truth, how unexpected :roll:

    Why don't you get back to crying on your Glenn Beck blow-up doll's lap. He can tell you it's all OK and that "da libs" are responsible for everything bad in the world, no matter what. Oh, and to buy food insurance.
     
  12. theunbubba

    theunbubba Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    AWWWW. is him butt hurt?
     
  13. Grokmaster

    Grokmaster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your the one who cannot face the Truth, yet persist in playing Leftninny Word Dance, to try to keep pretending that your asinines premise is remotely True.


    HERE IS WHERE MOST AMERICANS are MURDERED:


    http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45jggj/1-detroit/



    Deal with it,and reap the bitter harvest of Leftninny Urban Policy....
     
  14. Backtothefront

    Backtothefront New Member

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    You bet. Big bubba is throwing another tantrum after getting schooled again, but it's to be expected from the radical right wing morons that have the intelligence of a baboon's ass, and look like one too.
     
  15. Backtothefront

    Backtothefront New Member

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    Stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum isn't going to make your deflection attempt work. This thread is about states not cities.
     
  16. Grokmaster

    Grokmaster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This thread is about you trying to pretend that it is not URBAN AREAS (full of OBAMA VOTERS) that produce the MOST MURDERS in America, regarldess of the state they are in.


    You got busted...REPEATEDLY.......
    Leftninny Word Dance....we've seen it before...
     
  17. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm dizzy from that there spin.......

    #1, Mississippi
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 18.3
    Permissive gun laws: 4th out of 50

    #2, Arizona
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
    Permissive gun laws: 1st out of 50

    #3, Alaska
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
    Permissive gun laws: 11th out of 50

    #4, Arkansas
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 15.1
    Permissive gun laws: 7th out of 50

    #5, Louisiana
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 19.9
    Permissive gun laws: 23rd out of 50

    #6, New Mexico
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
    Permissive gun laws: 6th out of 50

    #7, Alabama
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
    Permissive gun laws: 27th out of 50

    #8, Nevada
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 16.2
    Permissive gun laws: 22nd out of 50

    #9, Montana
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
    Permissive gun laws: 10th out of 50

    #10, Wyoming
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
    Permissive gun laws: 8th out of 50

    #11, Kentucky
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.4
    Permissive gun laws: 5th out of 50

    #12, West Virginia
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.8
    Permissive gun laws: 25th out of 50

    #13, Tennessee
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
    Permissive gun laws: 31st out of 50

    #14, Oklahoma
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
    Permissive gun laws: 17th out of 50

    #15, Idaho
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.5
    Permissive gun laws: 2nd out of 50

    #16, Georgia
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.1
    Permissive gun laws: 13th out of 50

    #17, Missouri
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.9
    Permissive gun laws: 12th out of 50

    #18, South Carolina
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
    Permissive gun laws: 20th out of 50

    #19, North Carolina
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.3
    Permissive gun laws: 28th out of 50

    #20, Florida
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.5
    Permissive gun laws: 41st out of 50

    #21, Kansas
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.5
    Permissive gun laws: 14th out of 50

    #22, Indiana
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.6
    Permissive gun laws: 21st out of 50

    #23, Texas
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
    Permissive gun laws: 32nd out of 50

    #24, Michigan
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.9
    Permissive gun laws: 39th out of 50

    #25, Maryland
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.1
    Permissive gun laws: 44th out of 50

    #26, Colorado
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.4
    Permissive gun laws: 24rd out of 50

    #27, Pennsylvania
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
    Permissive gun laws: 40th out of 50

    #28, Virginia
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
    Permissive gun laws: 35th out of 50

    #29, Utah
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.5
    Permissive gun laws: 18th out of 50

    #30, Vermont
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.4
    Permissive gun laws: 3rd out of 50

    #31, Oregon
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.4
    Permissive gun laws: 30th out of 50

    #32, North Dakota
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.9
    Permissive gun laws: 15th out of 50

    #33, Ohio
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.6
    Permissive gun laws: 29th out of 50

    #34, Maine
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.1
    Permissive gun laws: 9th out of 50

    #35, Delaware
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.2
    Permissive gun laws: 33rd out of 50

    #36, Wisconsin
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.7
    Permissive gun laws: 34th out of 50

    #37, Nebraska
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8
    Permissive gun laws: 19th out of 50

    #38, South Dakota
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 6.5
    Permissive gun laws: 16th out of 50

    #39, Washington
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.5
    Permissive gun laws: 37th out of 50

    #40, California
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 9
    Permissive gun laws: 50th out of 50

    #41, New Hampshire
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.9
    Permissive gun laws: 26th out of 50

    #42, Minnesota
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 6.6
    Permissive gun laws: 36th out of 50

    #43, Illinois
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8
    Permissive gun laws: 45th out of 50

    #44, Iowa
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.3
    Permissive gun laws: 38th out of 50

    #45, New York
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.1
    Permissive gun laws: 43rd out of 50

    #46, New Jersey
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.2
    Permissive gun laws: 49th out of 50

    #47, Connecticut
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 4.3
    Permissive gun laws: 46th out of 50

    #48, Rhode Island
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 3.5
    Permissive gun laws: 42nd out of 50

    #49, Massachusetts
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 3.6
    Permissive gun laws: 48th out of 50

    #50, Hawaii
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 2.8
    Permissive gun laws: 47th out of 50
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...t-gun-states-from-mississippi-to-arizona.html

    There is the link to the whole article. The strictest gun laws seems to have very little effect on the deaths per 100,000. Massachusetts has the third strictest gun laws in the country and has a gun death rate of 3.6 per 100,000, yet California has the strictest gun laws and still has 9 deaths per 100,000. Maryland a solid blue state with the 6th strictest gum laws in the country has over 12 gun deaths per 100,000. Maine has the 9th most permissive gun laws and has less than California which has the strictest.

    If your trying to prove stricter gun laws equates to less gun deaths, ya missed it by a country mile.

    BTW, the number of gun deaths are way out of order in their rankings, I'll fix that in another post.
     
  18. Backtothefront

    Backtothefront New Member

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    I've debunked your BS numbers times and asked you a few times, which you refused to answer is if all these black Obama voters are the problem, why are the most dangerous states in the south bright red?
     
  19. Grokmaster

    Grokmaster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Those aren't my numbers; they are the FBI's NUMBERS.


    YOu post nonsense from Leftkook Blogs; I post actual NEWS SOURCES, citing the FBI's numbers. You couldn't debunk a baby in a double bed....

    Try to at least BORROW a clue.....start here:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. Flint, Mich.
    • Violent crimes per 1,000: 23.4
    • Population: 102,357
    • 2011 murders: 52
    • Median income: $22,672
    • Unemployment rate: 18.9 percent

    According to the FBI examined, no city with more than 100,000 residents had a higher violent crime rate than Flint. In 2011, there were 2,392 incidents of violent crime in Flint, which has a population just above 100,000. That same year, there were just 1,246 violent crimes in all 10 of the safest cities in America -- which have 13 times as many residents as Flint among them. Flint has the second-highest murder rate and the highest rates of aggravated assault, burglary and arson in the nation. According to Flint Mayor Dayne Walling: “there are too many guns on the street and it’s easy for individuals with evil motives to take another human being’s life.” Though the violent crime has long been a problem in Flint, in 2010 the city laid off 20 of its 140 police officers, a decision that diminished both the police’s street presence and response times to crime.

    2. Detroit, Mich.
    • Violent crimes per 1,000: 21.4
    • Population: 713,239
    • 2011 murders: 344
    • Median income: $25,787
    • Unemployment rate: 19.9 percent

    Long regarded as one of the poorest cities in the U.S., with a 32.3 percent poverty rate and nearly 20 percent unemployment in 2010, Detroit has the second-highest violent crime rate in the country. Homicide increased by 11 percent in 2011, while robbery and aggravated assault are fourth and second highest in the country, respectively. Nonviolent crime is also an issue, with burglary, motor vehicle theft and arson rates in the top 10 rankings in the country. In response to an 18 percent decrease in the Detroit police budget, which will result in the elimination of 380 positions through attrition and early retirement, the city has begun taking steps to decrease police funding by introducing “Virtual Precincts.” The plan, which closes police stations between 4 p.m. and 8 a.m, requires citizens to report non-emergency crime to a call center, and frees up more patrol officers to respond to 911 emergency calls.

    3. St. Louis, Mo.
    • Violent crimes per 1,000: 18.6
    • Population: 320,454
    • 2011 murders: 113
    • Median income: $32,688
    • Unemployment rate: 11.7 percent

    Although the total number of murders in the city has decreased by 31 since 2010, crime in St. Louis did not improve overall last year. Violent crime rates in St. Louis have risen dramatically, from 17.5 to 18.6 cases per 1,000 people. And the city’s murder rate is still the fourth highest in the nation, its robbery rate is the fifth highest in the nation and its aggravated assault rate is third-highest in the nation. Despite these troubling facts, the St. Louis Police Department recently faced potentially drastic budget cuts that may require the elimination of 100 street-patrolling officer positions through attrition.

    24/7 Wall St.: The most dangerous cars in America

    4. Oakland, Calif.
    • Violent crimes per 1,000: 16.8
    • Population: 395,317
    • 2011 murders: 104
    • Median income: $49,190
    • Unemployment rate: 15.6 percent

    Oakland historically has been among the most crime-ridden cities in California, with a violent crime rate this year of 16.8 per 1,000 people. There were 14 more murders in 2011 than in 2010, causing Oakland to maintain the ninth-highest murder rate in the country two years in a row. Oakland is the number one city for both robbery and motor vehicle theft rates in the country. Oakland city councilmember Desley Brooks, who wants to allocate $11 million in revenue to the police force, acknowledges the increased violent crime, saying, “we cannot ignore that we have had an increase in violent crime, and so we cannot continue to do the same thing the same way and expect that it’s going to be a different result.”

    5. Memphis, Tenn.
    • Violent crimes per 1,000: 15.8
    • Population: 652,725
    • 2011 murders: 117
    • Median income: $37,045
    • Unemployment rate: 11.1 percent

    In 2011, Memphis defied the national trend of declining crime rates in major U.S. cities. The rate of violent crimes per 1,000 people increased, from 15.4 to 15.8. This was the product of increases in murders, which rose from 89 to 117, and aggravated assault incidents, which rose by 100 cases. A rising unemployment rate, which grew 1.2 percent to 11.1 percent in 2011, likely has not helped to reduce criminal behavior. With a current budget deficit of $45 million, Mayor Wharton says he may need to consider “taking boots off the street,” by laying off members of the police force in the near future.

    Read the rest of the list of most dangerous cities at 24/7 Wall St.'s Web site.



    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/most-dangerous-cities-america-832351

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ALL OF THEM UNDER DUNCE-O-CRAT CONTROL...for DECADES. Welcome to the world Leftism created in our cities....
     
  20. Backtothefront

    Backtothefront New Member

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    If all these blacks are Obama voters, why are the states in the deep south bright red?
     
  21. Grokmaster

    Grokmaster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's URBAN AREAS that GENERATE THE MOST CRIME, BY FAR.

    The South?
    Because those are the states with the largest black populations, despite the other people voting against Obama?

    BLacks commit the MOST MURDERS,and are MURDERED the MOST, as well.

    Duh...the South is FAR MORE INTEGRATED than the RACIST NORTH.

    You'll learn more about America after you move out of Mom's house....
     
  22. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    #5, Louisiana
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 19.9
    Permissive gun laws: 23rd out of 50

    #1, Mississippi
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 18.3
    Permissive gun laws: 4th out of 50

    #7, Alabama
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
    Permissive gun laws: 27th out of 50

    #3, Alaska
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
    Permissive gun laws: 11th out of 50

    #8, Nevada
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 16.2
    Permissive gun laws: 22nd out of 50

    #4, Arkansas
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 15.1
    Permissive gun laws: 7th out of 50

    #13, Tennessee
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
    Permissive gun laws: 31st out of 50

    #2, Arizona
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
    Permissive gun laws: 1st out of 50

    #6, New Mexico
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
    Permissive gun laws: 6th out of 50

    #12, West Virginia
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.8
    Permissive gun laws: 25th out of 50

    #9, Montana
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
    Permissive gun laws: 10th out of 50

    #10, Wyoming
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
    Permissive gun laws: 8th out of 50

    #11, Kentucky
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.4
    Permissive gun laws: 5th out of 50

    #14, Oklahoma
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
    Permissive gun laws: 17th out of 50

    #18, South Carolina
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
    Permissive gun laws: 20th out of 50

    #16, Georgia
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.1
    Permissive gun laws: 13th out of 50

    #17, Missouri
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.9
    Permissive gun laws: 12th out of 50

    #20, Florida
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.5
    Permissive gun laws: 41st out of 50

    #15, Idaho
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.5
    Permissive gun laws: 2nd out of 50

    #19, North Carolina
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.3
    Permissive gun laws: 28th out of 50

    #25, Maryland
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.1
    Permissive gun laws: 44th out of 50

    #24, Michigan
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.9
    Permissive gun laws: 39th out of 50

    #23, Texas
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
    Permissive gun laws: 32nd out of 50

    #27, Pennsylvania
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
    Permissive gun laws: 40th out of 50

    #28, Virginia
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
    Permissive gun laws: 35th out of 50

    #22, Indiana
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.6
    Permissive gun laws: 21st out of 50

    #21, Kansas
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.5
    Permissive gun laws: 14th out of 50

    #31, Oregon
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.4
    Permissive gun laws: 30th out of 50

    #26, Colorado
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.4
    Permissive gun laws: 24rd out of 50

    #33, Ohio
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.6
    Permissive gun laws: 29th out of 50

    #29, Utah
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.5
    Permissive gun laws: 18th out of 50

    #35, Delaware
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.2
    Permissive gun laws: 33rd out of 50

    #40, California
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 9
    Permissive gun laws: 50th out of 50

    #32, North Dakota
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.9
    Permissive gun laws: 15th out of 50

    #36, Wisconsin
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.7
    Permissive gun laws: 34th out of 50

    #39, Washington
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.5
    Permissive gun laws: 37th out of 50

    #30, Vermont
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.4
    Permissive gun laws: 3rd out of 50

    #34, Maine
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.1
    Permissive gun laws: 9th out of 50

    #43, Illinois
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8
    Permissive gun laws: 45th out of 50

    #37, Nebraska
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 8
    Permissive gun laws: 19th out of 50

    #42, Minnesota
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 6.6
    Permissive gun laws: 36th out of 50

    #38, South Dakota
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 6.5
    Permissive gun laws: 16th out of 50

    #41, New Hampshire
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.9
    Permissive gun laws: 26th out of 50

    #44, Iowa
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.3
    Permissive gun laws: 38th out of 50

    #46, New Jersey
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.2
    Permissive gun laws: 49th out of 50

    #45, New York
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.1
    Permissive gun laws: 43rd out of 50

    #47, Connecticut
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 4.3
    Permissive gun laws: 46th out of 50

    #49, Massachusetts
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 3.6
    Permissive gun laws: 48th out of 50

    #48, Rhode Island
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 3.5
    Permissive gun laws: 42nd out of 50

    #50, Hawaii
    Gun deaths per 100,000: 2.8
    Permissive gun laws: 47th out of 50

    Here is the same list arranged according to gun deaths per 100,000. It looks to me like the original writer of the article re-arranged the numbers to make the point red States had weaker gun laws and more deaths. As we can clearly see the relationship of weak gun laws to more deaths is hardly linear.
     
    hiimjered and (deleted member) like this.
  23. Radio Refugee

    Radio Refugee New Member

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    There's no provinance for the stats nor metric applied for 'liberal gun laws'. And when you look at the top twenty states, the gun deaths (includes all accidents, wayyyy more likely in MT, WY) the range was tight, from 12 per 100,000 up to 15. That's maybe marginally significant.

    Bottom line: It's a buggered POS. It's Daily Beast anti-gun agitprop. Expect the desperate leftwad liberty grabbers to spew this puke regularly.
     
  24. Longstreet

    Longstreet New Member

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    Any American who is not armed is a fool. Great times ahead if you enjoy
    chaos and strife.
     
  25. Grokmaster

    Grokmaster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sad, but true....
     

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