Seriously, what is wrong with Christians?

No, I said his own creation and will.

 

Here's the post you made.
You said that humans are limited by their nature so what god is able to do is limited by his creation (i assume you mean man) and his will.
So you really said both, didn't you?
What is the limitation of his creation that limits his will?
Can man not understand morality?

 

I think God's will is the only limit to his creation. I think man can understand morality but there is more to it in a society than understanding morality, there is living by it and these things take time.

 

That wasn't what you were seemed to imply to me earlier. If man can understand morality, then God creating such immoral laws makes even less sense.

 

I never implied that man couldn't understand morality. What are you talking about ?

 

You would agree that they can't live by what isn't presented as an option, though, don't you?
And they couldn't live by what was presented anyway, so why not give them truly moral options?

 

1. Yeah, that sounds right.
2. Slavery was presented to them by their own fallen society,is a result of mankind, not God telling them to start it up but rather restrict what was already in their hearts.

 

So he chose to support their fallen choices, rather than lead them?
The restriction being they could only beat their slaves badly enough that the tortured slave would survive the beating at least two days, right?
Somehow that just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy.

 

"They were just coming from a primitive place that you cannot imagine because you are far past that time and God's morals were accepted within their reach."

Is this not implying that man couldn't understand portions of morality because of their primitive states?

 

OK call me arrogant or whatever you like. I just can't, for the life of me, understand how grown adults can believe in that invisible man in the sky story. Or the idea that the absolute best idea god could come up with was to sacrifice himself to himself to get over being angry about what he created. I mean how does killing his "son" mellow him out? I wouldn't be too happy if somebody killed one of my kids.

And what's this "only begotten son" story? I thought he was supposed to be god. Can't he have just as many "begotten sons" as he wants? Thousand even? Millions? And what was Jesus big sacrifice anyway? OK so he hung on the cross for a few hours. Its not like he was the only one. There were two thieves right next to him. According to the story. And he could have hopped down off the cross any time he wanted. He was god right? A blink of an eye and his tormentors would have been hanging there while JC and his friends sat around drinking wine and eating fish sticks. And then he's 3 days in a cave. I can see where that might get a little boring but we're to suppose he was dead so his mind wasn't working. So to him its like a minute maybe? Then he gets to go to Heaven forever and ever and be god. And this was his GREAT sacrifice? Hey if I can be god I'll lay in a cave for 3 weeks. And NOBODY thought to write ANY of this down for like 50 years.

In ALL honesty this makes NO sense to me at all. So according to some around here I'll be burning in Hell forever and ever. Because it just sounds to me like a made up story. So PLEASE remember this is my ETERNAL SOUL we are talking about here. Help me out. Explain to me how this is supposed to make the least bit of sense to anyone who didn't have this pounded into his head from the moment of birth and taught to value faith over reason.

 

I have to jump off tonight, my computer is getting abnormally hot.

 

Paul was the guy who came up with that story. I think he was just having fun. He even said that you have to believe in zombies for the story to be true. The Pharisees believed in zombies but the Sadducees didn't.

 

How much is the convenient overheating feature?

 

You know how Paul was riding through the desert on his way to murder more early Christians? Then he fell off his horse and was blinded for 3 days. And then he became the biggest advocate for Christianity? That's how the story was explained to me anyway. Well my personal belief is that he figured out how he could turn the religion on its head and use it to control the population. I think he was laughing so hard when it struck him that he fell off his horse and couldn't see straight for 3 days because he was laughing too hard. Have you ever laughed so hard you had tears streaming down your face? It was probably like that.

And that whole "faith over works" thing was because he knew he was a mass murdering piece of garbage and it was his way of excusing himself. So by that theory Hitler says a mea culpa on his death bed and spends eternity in Heaven while the 6 million Jews he murdered burn in Hell forever because they were born into the wrong family. Anyhow that's how I see it and why it doesn't make a particle of sense to me.

But again, I'm worried about my soul over here. I need someone to explain to me how an adult is supposed to take this stuff seriously. Because I don't have a clue.

 

Paul was definitely a junior demon if not a full-fledged one. But if you toss all of the supernatural mumbo-jumbo and look at it as a practical problem of what's a good way to live a better life with less stress and mental anguish you might get a satisfactory answer.

Suppose you're a lying thieving murderer with a list of other faults. Will just believing in Jesus and that he died for your sins make you a better person? Will it be enough to ease your conscience and give you peace about all of the crimes you have done?

Or suppose you did a lot of good deeds to make up for your crimes. Suppose you gave all of your money to charity and built something useful for the community. Suppose you mentored kids and helped them with their education. Would all of your good works make up for your past crimes?

I think these are the types of issues that the Bible is really discussing. To our modern way of thinking it uses a lot of silly characters to give the story interest and to move the plot along. But if you look beyond the superficial you may find an answer or two.

Remember, the Bible is really about how to get into the golden cube of peace and harmony and how to avoid the lake of fire of hate and discord. It's up to each person to find his own answers from whatever source he can.

Think about David and how he went around cutting off guys' foreskins as trophies to get one of his wives. Or think about how he caused another man's death to gain his wife. Will doing something evil really bring you long-term happiness?

 

[video=youtube;CE8ooMBIyC8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8[/video]

 

Ultimately David was the one who was of god's own heart, so it worked out for him in the story.

 

The God of the Bible was the reigning Assyrian/Babylonian emperor. God died when the last Babylonian emperor died. That's why no one has seen God since then.

 

Sorry but I asked you a question that deserves an answer so we can avoid 20,000 questions to get to the point.

Why do you think a law limiting the abuse to slaves would need to be created if they didn't need it ?

I didn't say they were "on the same level" but you are missing the point here.

1. God allowed things that were undesirable to him.
2. Jesus said why that was. - "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard."

And adultery was pretty bad, they would divorce their wives for anything they wanted to, it was pretty cruddy.

So we can ALSO assume that God allowed slaves because their hearts were hard,that's the point.

I know, you don't have to tell me twice,but you couldn't offer a solution before either.Make them obey ?

It doesn't matter if people forgave him or not, that has nothing to do with the analogy

"They" in the analogy would be Hitler's followers, (citizens and military) . Just as Hitler would have changed his laws from bad to good,it still wouldn't allow his citizens to justify their bad behavior anymore using his new laws, the same,neither could a Christian justify his ways with old laws. There isn't even a Sanhedrin or great Sanhedrin to carry them out anymore.

Can't blame Jesus for that, just as Jesus was against divorce and used the beginning as an example of how it should be, he said "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard." I would say the same for slavery .Just because you find one thing worse that the other doesn't mean they weren't both bad but the point goes to show that Moses permitted it (the law) because their hearts were hard,NOT Jesus. < --------

No kidding,but when I pointed out the NT verse against slave trading, you jumped on the "cherry picking" bandwagon.

Because slavery wasn't "the law and the prophets" anymore than a billion other scribal laws that Jesus blatantly broke. Healing on the Sabbath was a no no, eating pork,if you knew the history, was a complete slap in Israelite faces,hand washing laws,etc.. I could go on with it but I already told you that Jesus was the "fulfillment" of the law,which supersedes Mosaic scribal Laws.

 

Lead them ? You mean make them ? Just like the other Laws that were made because of "the hardness in their hearts"
How can you enlighten people that reject it ?

Yeah it's a rough law but that smells of man more than God to me.

It was a totally free feature.

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No, that implies exactly what I said, place and time. Tell me how moral you would be living in the desert in the stone age ? Sure they could understand morals but they might have had a bit more dragging against them than you do.

 

You'd think that if Christians are going to believe these stories they'd at least make an effort to get them right. But I'm an atheist so what could I know about it? I mean other than what it SAYS:

 

So you believe the bible is flawed and man made?
Ok.
No one said "make them". Don't construct an argument you are more comfortable discussing.
Still not hearing an answer. Since they didn't follow the law anyway, why not install one they would break that had some moral backbone?

 

You got them here with just common sense.

If they have a simple solution for removing Slavery as one of the twelve possible human economic systems, (besides modernization and social evolution as took place in Europe an America,) they need explain it to India, where 3/4ths of the people called untouchables are slaves, simply because they have no property and must work for the land owners as serfs.

India is growing, as is China, into the 21st century and all the Untouchables need and all Ghamdi wanted for them was fair treatment in the role they now play, so they and the children have opportunity to learn and progress.

 

The snake story alone is enough to show he was a self promoting liar.

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The snake story alone is enough to show he was a self promoting liar.