Well I can't seem to find anything to suggest that he did consult London but of course he could of done so without leaving Gib. I don't think that the Rajoy government would orchestrate an act of aggression as demonstrated by the "Jet ski shooting" without risking military action by Britain. But what I do think is that the Spanish govt is only interested in diverting attention from the major problems that face Spain. Subsequently I don't think that Spain is seriously interested in the Gibraltar issue. If Picardo did want to return the favour then I suppose we could mail him a spud-gun and he could fire the odd potshot or two at Spanish fishermen. I'm kidding.
Exactly...you´re right, I think. In fact, neither London nor Madrid were interested in opening a new issue in Algesiras bay ... Who threw the blocks? When? Why? No, it wasn´t a London´sdecision but Gibraltar´s, and without taking advice from London. No one doubts the property (as it was signed in Utrecht) is British ... water and neutral zone are issues will be negotiated in future and achieved a solution (not now, but I´m sure to an agreement will come: Water by evacuation (neutral zone) or something like that). British Spanish relations have been very complex in past...At times has been allied nations... (for example against Napoleon) but often has been hostile countries... the "friendship" in XII and XIII centuries, finished in XIV Century by the the rivalry between Castile and Aquitaine for naval trade with Flanders.. in 1349 begun the anglospanish "issue"... till nowadays?...perhaps the Spaniards begun when a castilian fleet ruled by don Carlos de la Cerda seized an English merchant fleet in Bretagne...(November 1349). Then it came the mysterious battle of Winchelsea (1350)...If we believe Froissart (sole source) was an English victory ... but that's the mystery ...It happened what happened in Winchelsea, the King of England was forced by the Treaty of London (August, 1, 1351) to accept all castilian claims including fishing rights in the English Coast. On August 1st 1351, Edward III signed in London a treaty with the leaders of the Castilian sailors (remember that the own Castile was neutral). In a curious negotiation, Edward III, the theoretical "winner" of the battle, yielded to all the claims of Castilians, including the free trade and fishing rights in the coast of England and Bretagne. And still more.. the king signatured at the same level than the spanish plenipotentiaries (simple seamen!!!!) don Juan Lopez de Salcedo, Don Diego Sanchez de Lupart y Don Martin Perez de Golindano...somethin unheard in the English monarchy history... the king at the same level! It´s probably that battle never happened.. Or its happened, It was not like Froisart described!. Regards.
All countries in Europe are like that... Take any two countries in Europe and you notice they've been allies and enemies countless times.
Yes and no...For example, Romania had bad relations with Hungary, Bulgaria or Turkey ... but not with Sweden or Norway. The Phobias and philias Anglo- Spanish relations created as a cultural substrate in both countries.. or better to said in a not small part of the world. actually it was the rivalry between Catholic and Protestant worlds, but the origin is in XIV century. Otherwise the origin of the Spanish-British rivalry is in the Protonationalist period (time when some western countries were forming before the rise of nationalism)... This was so that Richard Helgerson wrote than "England necessarily defined itself and the character of its overseas expansion in terms of its relations with Spain" (Forms of Nationhood: The Elizabethan writing of England, page 92). The next event was the intervention of France and England in the Castillian Civil War (Peter vs Henry). The English longbowmen, led by the wrong-named Black Prince defeated the French and Castillian army in battle of Najera (1367), one of the greatest spanish defeats and one of the major English longbowmen victories next to Crezy and Agincourt, although finally Henry won the war and decided to intervene in support of France..However, in 1372 the victory was for the spaniards. The Castillian fleet (Don Ambrosio Bocanegra) decisively defeated the English fleet (John Hastings, Earl of Pembroke) in the battle of La Rochelle (The greatest defeat probably ever sustained by the English navy) or like a British historian says: a disastrous blow to this country. Regards
Yes. Britain and Spain have had a largely competitive relationship with one another but of course nowadays the game has changed as is the way of every era of history. But the only long lasting relationship that comes to mind in regards to Europe is the alliance between England/Britain and Portugal which is what brought us into the peninsular war. Edward of Woodstock. It's likely that historians added that title. I'd say that the battle of Chesapeake bay is the biggest wartime defeat but of course it's difficult to equate naval warfare of the middle ages to the 18th century.
That is a difficult and tricky issue. I have heard from a number of Spaniards that they feel concerned about Islam in Spain but this is a separate issue with many other threads/topics dedicated to it. Apparently it's still valid which would make it the longest standing alliance in the world. As for the ultimatum; are you referring to this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1890_British_Ultimatum Yes it would of been military suicide to assail both France and Spain at the same time which explains why we safeguarded the Portuguese royal family instead of the country. It would of been possible had we already of been there in force as a defensive line is far easier to hold than an offensive push. But ultimately I think that you're right Britain was more interested in putting an end to Napoleon's empire rather than the defence of what must of appeared to us as indefensible. I agree. I find no fault with that statement.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24769908 It appears as if the Spain is once again being belligerent
Tory MPs have demanded a show of force against Spain after yet another Spanish vessel entered Gibraltarian waters. The RV Ramon Margalef entered the waters on Monday and was met with Royal Navy patrol boat HMS Sabre, which asked the Spanish ship to leave. Royal Navy patrol boat HMS Sabre (pictured) intercepted a Spanish survey ship and asked it to leave British Gibraltar waters, but it refused. The Spanish ambassador has now been summoned to explain However, the Spanish ship refused to do so and stayed put for 20 hours. Now, Tory MPs are saying that the next time a Spanish vessel sails into Gibraltarian waters, the Royal Navy should fire at it. Tory MP Colonel Bob Stewart, who was the British United Nations commander during the Bosnian war, said that if the Government is serious about defending Gibraltar’s sovereignty it should send major combat units to deter Spanish grandstanding. Former Tory MP Louise Mensch added: ‘The next time a Spanish ship enters Gibraltarian waters and refuses to leave after Royal Navy warnings we should fire on them.’ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nds-leave-Gibraltar-waters.html#ixzz2lC1GnDdk
It turns out the only one with military experience is the one who makes sense. You can't go around shooting at other vessels which out gun your own, unless you have serious land based fire support. Sending and stationing a frigate their is all well and good, but we don't have the frigate to spare at the moment. My view is look for a political solution.
Aye..... Right enough, like in Iranian waters...... The hand over there weapons, and give in! Perhaps, if the Spanish people are shown the same respect, communications between both parties could rectify this situation. I personally, will not hold my breath. Regards Highlander
I think that we can spare a destroyer or two and could spare one the type 45's for part of the year. But ultimately Spain needs to understand that incursions into British waters can only be tolerated for so long. And yes I do think that the Gibraltar garrison needs some heavier equipment like a gun battery or two pointed towards the water. Naturally this is if diplomacy becomes futile. This stage of the Gib issue is different because of the number of incursions has risen so we should really nip this in the bud while we can.
Spanish people are shown respect ? And they're NOT ? In what way are they not ? Usual c**p from you of course - you say the same about Northern Ireland. Then are curiously contemptuous of the rights of the protestant community. Double standards all the way - the aggressors, if they aren't British, are the good guys. What about the "rights" of the Gibraltarians ? The Spanish are doing an ORGANIZED attempt at goading Britain, knowing creatures like you side with opponents against the British for your own reasons (curious how many of you have snouts in the public funds trough whether it be councils or quangoes or even employed in quangoes nothing to do with where they are interfering) Just like the Falklands - you people NEVER say "It should be what the PEOPLE want" - why ? Because THEIR wishes are the complete OPPOSITE of what YOU lot want
This IS a different topic, however, islam IS causing ruptions between the European nations, and the fault is entirely down to the politically correct - they have NOT been elected to change immigration rules, but they've done it anyways due to weak gutless MPs, Labour being by far the worst in this respect. No doubt "Highlander" above will screech the place down, in defence of muslims - but maybe if they moved next to him, or target the catholic church more he'd change dramatically, like all hypocrites
Highlander has problems with facts. He claimed that Winston Churchill was responsible for the Boer war concentration camps but refuses to give any evidence or admit he made it up.
Higlander isn't Scottish. He is an Irish-American with an anti British obsession. he knows very little about Scotland and keeps bringing things back to Ireland.
Pity ..... You are nailed your colours to the orange mast. I believe in honour, truth, love or my fellow man, or woman! I have no interest in supporting the corrupt practices such as, stopping my fellow man from working because of his religion. I will not support the marginalization of another because of there religion. One section of your community not allowed to vote, rights ya tube! I would never support the murder of my fellow man by the MRF or the one that came after the MIF, by British murder squads. Rights are for all men women and children, regardless of religion colour or creed. This is totally alien to those genocidal corrupt politicians owned by the establishment in the UK parliament. You lot..... Would this be the silent majority, not the low lives that think they have the right to steal anything they wish, using the lives and bodies of those that suffer the privations of the economic policies creating poverty within the countries if the uk. The falkland was a numptys errand, at some stage the oil below the Falkland Islands will be agreed and the oil corporations will give it to Argentina. Waken up and smell your own hypocrisy. Highlander
Ooh, and what a bout the deceit and lies or lord Faulkner. The spinning dale agreement, what you know nothing or this, ....... So you are ignorant if these facts as well? God help us from ignoramuses and gross stupidity, of course I wouldn't imply you were stupid, but knowing the facts you have a better understanding of the orange wasters you are attempting to support. Highlander
I wholly agree. I don't think it's fair to say anything any particular member of this forum but I have observed that there are people who use unfounded statements and sterile conjecture in a futile bid to prevail in a debate. This does not work and damages the credibility of the respective contributor.
Yes, It was 1890, not 1895. On the other hand, I said that Spain doesnt recognize any British water around Gibraltar, and therefore will not respect something that does not recognize ... I recommended patience (and negotiation, waters in return evacuation of neutral zone, for example) ...When the British show a document in which the Catholic King yielded water or sovereignty ... then It will be respected ... but I doubt that the British historians find the Catholick King´s signature in any treaty (or any Spanish delegation).. To send a frigate to Gibraltar is unuseful because It is not a military conflict (Spain has many ways to make life very "unconfortable" in Gibraltar without using weapons, Spain not need to use military means).. second: because if the imposible conflict was real... a frigate, or two or three in Algeciras bay... it would be a very nice present to the King! The British naval superiority is based on the submarines, to bring the Royal navy in Algeciras Bay would be something like Suvla Bay! (But without the Belle Èpoque romanticism, of course). Regards
