What's happening to us, to the ones who believed we always do it right? I hate the way the KGB gathers information, but just learned, we are not any different. What started under John Howard, is now finding its way under Tony Abbott's government. What a sad day, what a extremely sad day for Australia. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...epresenting-east-timor-in-spying-case/5132486
Honestly, did you read this article??? This article looks more like something from the rumour mill than anything ever, with less credibility. First. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...epresenting-east-timor-in-spying-case/5132486 Now when you read the entire Article Nobody can confirm anything of such an arrest. In fact nobody can even suggest that the person was intensively questioned. Even that "SOMEBODY" they spoke to at the office raid states NOTHING of any arrest only that the raid took 6 hours. BUT http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...epresenting-east-timor-in-spying-case/5132486 So was he detained or not??? When making such allegations would you not think that one would remain consistent??? BUT even after reading through the entire article it becomes such a mess when you get to http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...epresenting-east-timor-in-spying-case/5132486 So apparently he was not even in Australia but this entire article is based on what he has said of the raid. No, sorry but hanging your hat on such poor reporting is incredibly stupid. But hey, criticise any government from articles that say what you want, just make sure the article is far more credible than this pile of tripe that lays claims that is put in doubt within its own article. I am sure you simply looked at the key points http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...epresenting-east-timor-in-spying-case/5132486 So far half of the article is discredited by its own lack of substance.
Mr Collaery says the whistle blower was "arrested", Brennan says the whistle blower and his wife were "detained" but can't confirm if he was "arrested". That is not contradictory, detain and arrest are two separate legal terms. Also the article says: "The ABC is trying to confirm the arrest" and that they "understand" he was detained, and quote Prof. Brennan who says he was detained and questioned but can't confirm if he was arrested. So it does not state that he was arrested, only that Collaery alleges that he has been arrested, and they clearly state that they haven't been able to confirm if the whistle blower was arrested (ie formally charged rather than just being detained and questioned then allowed to leave). Of course Collaery is the focus of the article, it was his office that was raided. However it also quotes Brandis and Professor Brennan. It's not like anyone from ASIO is going to give an interview, or the whistle blower himself. The article is perfectly fine.
We could be hit by an incoming astral object at any time that could wipe life off the entire planet, and these clowns still think its important to spend $billions spying on each others toilet & sex habits. It really begs the question of who the people elect to Govern their countries.
NONE of these people can say if the whistle blower was even asked a question and due to the fact that this article is NOT a legal document the only point of the article about the whistleblower is that he exists. They understand from talking to 'SOMEBODY' in the office raid that said the raid went for SIX hours. Nobody appeared to have said anything of substance and yet the ABC wants to report it as something of fact. Yes that is right yet they cannot even determine he was DETAINED or even Questioned. They simply wrote that as given It quotes people to try and provide some substance to the claims but who have actually no real knowledge the raid, arrest(or detention), questioning or anything took place. Of course you would say that, but the fact the KEY POINTS show this article is nothing but unsubstantiated claims of several people pretending something occurred that was illegal. Fact is that nothing in the article has been substantiated but the ABC attempts its best to convolute the article to infer something had occurred. If you look to the KEY POINTS you see the fabrication of the ABC. and I QUOTE 'ASIO raids the office of lawyer Bernard Collaery who is representing East Timor in a spying case '--- Possible true but nothing of motive is provided simply claims of what the Solicitor wants you to believe. 'He says a key witness in the case, a former spy, has been arrested in Canberra in another raid' ---- Absolutely nothing to the truth of such cliams even though they did try. Still they report it and find somebody who actually states so little of such matter that the truth is subsequently in question. 'ASIO will not confirm the office raid, but Attorney-General George Brandis says he approved it' --- Obviously ASIO will not confirm but neither does anybody else. Fact is this entire article is from somebody who was not even there. Reference to Brandis is great, he confirms he approved it but not that it occurred. Because it was approved it MUST have happened, EH??? No the article is not fine and the fact it has very little evidence of anything really occurring shows that the ABC will put anything out there and hope the Gullible will bite. Seems to me they have got a small one and just waiting for something bigger to come along.
This will not end with the action reported by the ABC. Spying for commercial advantage? What have we become (or were we always?). Disgraceful. Timor Leste should take this to the WTO (omg, i can't believe i said that). What options do they have? Disgusting.
Garry Garry, you do wear some blinkers, every time something on the news is discreteting our country, you hold against. That's not helpful, far better to question why such terrible things happen. To get our hands on gas, with appears to turn out to be a forged deal, is not what I want. This gas is much closes to East Timor then to our shores, it looks to me the East Timorese only ask for justice. And what are we doing, again under a Liberal Government, deny this justice. I hope The Hague will fire some heavy guns at us, reminding us about that such a behavior is not acceptable in a free democratic country. We are almost on par with Russia or all the Bin Ladens of this world, regards http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...alls-for-inquiry/story-e6frfku9-1226774620861
I'm not going to respond to every point garry, but I will summarise. The article is simply reporting what various people including Collaery, Brandis, Brennan and others have said. Also it never says the raids were illegal. No they don't name their source who they say was present during the office raid. What they present then is an un-named source who was reportedly present during the raid who confirmed it took place, the owner of the office who is currently overseas saying that it took place according to his employees and various documents and information was taken relating to the case between East Timor and Aust in the ICJ, and Brandis' media release stating that ASIO executed search warrants in Canberra at that time under his authority and collected documents and electronic information and that he had instructed that none of the evidence taken be passed to the team defending Australia in the ICJ. I think that is enough evidence that the raid occurred. They state they can't confirm if the whistle blower was arrested. Brennan states he can't confirm this either. They simply report that Collaery has alleged it. As Collaery is representing East Timor at the Hague, and the whistle blower is his key witness in the case, it is very much a news worthy statement. They state they "understand" the whistle blower was detained and questioned, and quote Prof Brennan. No Brennan does not state how he supposedly knows that the whistle blower was questioned and detained. Presumably this is to protect the whistle blowers identity. Never once in the article do they state that what any of these people said is the absolute truth. They simply state what has been said, and what (if any) evidence they have to confirm or contradict the statements.
With all due respect, does this kind of behaviour really surprise you about any Australian politician? These scum-bags would sell their families into prostitution, if they thought they could make 20c. These same dirty circus clowns keep getting voted into power.
Hear hear, now the PM is saying that he is backing ASIO's actions because of our national interests. Of course they are, ripping gas from East Timor would be in our financial interest. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-04/asio-arrests-key-witness-in-east-timor-spying-scandal/5132954 Quite frankly, after Indonesia and now East Timor I strongly suggest, that we ban all international cricket games until we live up to certain ethical and moral values. I am so disgusted by all that, sorry to Indonesia and sorry to East Timor. At his stage we can't get much lower.... With the benefit of hindsight, it must be stated that the apology (Kevin Rudd to indig. Australians) was one of the true highlights in my life, while the despicable actions off both J.Howard (Iraq War) and his failure Tony Abbotts will go down in history among the biggest mistake ever happened in our young nation. Regards
Heh, the whistle blower decided to do so after Downer got a gig with Woodside Petrolium. We are TOO much like America. Labor is in on it too. Fvckers. http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...george-brandis-denies-overstepping-his-powers
Not only did we totally rip them off, we allegedly sent spies posing as workers for an Australian aid program to restore the government buildings in to plant listening devices in the walls. Aid ain't such a waste of money when we're using it for its real purpose, to screw over impoverished nations!
Because I do not blindly believe the media, as it appears you do. I question each and every article I read for facts rather than simply taking it on face value because not only does the media sensationalise anything it can, PEOPLE LIE. As by now you would be aware that nobody was detained, arrested or questioned by ASIO simply the chief witness has had his passport cancelled. Completely different to the claims made by the ABC. Secondly, do you know what the case is really about??? Do you know that this case is brought to have the agreement nullified??? It is not a case to simply hold government to account, it is a case to renegotiate the treaty with others in mind. So nothing will really change just the business that will be in control, or that is the wish of the people who paid the solicitor to act on this case in the hope and belief they will be the ones to gain the contracts. What is not helpful is simply looking to all this media with such superficiality that you do not really know the underlying reality. Such as DID you know this case was even occurring before this report??? WHY did you now know??? Who is going to benefit from such a case??? Why were the Raids committed??? Now that is funny, You began this thread with indignation of the Abbott government raiding the office of a solicitor bringing a case to the international court in some pretence of perverting justice. NOW it is all about the espionage committed by ASIO, is it the fact you realised that your first point was a total sham fabricated by the solicitor with the aid of the ABC??? After the speech in parliament by Brandis the Greens even backed off on the claims of trying to influence the case so now is that why your tact has changed??? Clear example of how people fall for the media rather than examine the fact is shown in this thread, with the clear undeniable fact the article is wrong and made up of innuendo and claims that appear to be clearly wrong. You want to discuss the points of industrial espionage??? This entire case is representative of that very same espionage as the people who brought the case believe they are the ones who will step in and take the reins of this enterprise if they can have the deal nullifiedÂ… How do they know this??? Who is giving them the insider trading to say the case is worthwhile to them??? More is set to come, one thing for sure is that if you wish to be indignant about actions of government, you had better be sure your do not have to change your story half way through. http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...alls-for-inquiry/story-e6frfku9-1226774620861[/QUOTE]
So in other words the ABC has come down to the level of trashy magazine now??? They no longer report real facts and real news they report innuendo and rumours just like a tabloid??? Interesting that somebody would hang their hat on what tabloids say... I wonder when the UFO abduction stories are going to come out. Thank you for pointing that out to me, NOW I believe that the ABC should be completely revamped and not because of their political bias but pure and simply for the fact they are turning into nothing of consequenceÂ… actually worse a tabloidÂ… Thanks for pointing that outÂ…
You jump and flapping about so many things here... What the hell are you feeling so indignant about??? the Espionage that was you claim to me, but you began with attempting to influence a court ruling and now it is how East Timor is being ripped off. JUST what is it you want to complain about??? Really your claims of how indignant you are about former leaders simply pails into incredulity when you are so inconsistent and shown to believe anything in media (AS long as it agrees with your opinion).
Well you justify the articles complete lack of fact by saying that it is OK because they do not ever say it is fact... Have you ever read a tabloid??? They inferred it as fact and the point that this very thread was created on that basis (because it could not be on facts) then it is obvious that the ABC is nothing more than a rumour mill and people are swallowing it as fact... As also to your defence of such article... So you believe something I said was stupid… And I believe your defence of an article based completely on the word of a solicitor who may or may not be breaking Australian laws is stupid… Who wins??? The one who knows his comment is stupid or the one who defends such stupidity to pretend some indignation???
Garry, you made it totally clear on which side you have chosen to reside. Blink blink blinkers..... regards
I was unaware there were sides in these matters as both parties are as guilty as one another. BUT I have not been trying to pin everything on the one group of people because of sour grapes that very few support my belief of how things should be done (as obviously you do). Fact is you continue to scrape through the bias media (which you ridicule for being bias) trolling for something that will ridicule a government you don't like because... Well I don't really know why you don't like them, but sure as (*)(*)(*)(*)e you have set your goals on posting anything you believe will grubby their credentials. So far you have created or participated in THREE (that is 3) threads which you believed were demonstration of how bad the Abbott government. BUT as shown, they clearly show that the ALP/Greens alliance is the creator of such events or were well aware of such events you turn to the fact that Abbott is attempting to clean them up as being bad. Now you find something that is created in coalition years, BUT first you want to condemn Abbott for supposed claim of tampering in international courts, then spying then the deal, but never allow the fact that BOTH parties including the Greens agreed to this and you will try to divert your indignation onto something you can find else were. It does not matter what side you are on (as you want to continue to complain about) what people should feel indignation about. Really that does not include anything you want to complain about. Fact is your complaints are so superficial they deserve nothing of the credit you believe they give. If you had actually thought about this rather than jumping straight out of the bag trying to condemn the Abbott government for such things you might want to think about what is really happening. As stated, who or what is the reason for the court appearance for??? What motive is in the case??? What motive would ASIO have to raid the premises??? What was the motive for the espionage on the East Timorese??? Was this deal something that came as a side benefit??? If you want to be so indignant then maybe you should have look a little further as the ONLY real thing you have (you have not even thought about) is Downer. BUT NO, that won’t incriminate the current government will it??? That will only show that one politician is simply doing what the ALP has shown to have done in the past, you know that lovely little thing called CORRUPTION. What a joke, nothing to refute so pretend you know better than others because… Who wears the blinkers, the one who clearly shows your indignation is nothing but pretence or the one who pretends equality in their demands of policitical representation.
It's just your opinion that they "inferred" something (what I don't know) as "fact". They clearly did not infer that the whistle blower had been arrested as "fact". The lawyer is entitled to give an interview to the press, that doesn't mean anything he says is a "fact", most of it was opinion about ASIO's motives. You keep going on about how the raids are just "rumours", when Brandis has already made a press release confirming that the raids took place, were carried out by ASIO under his authority, and that they collected various documents. Just how exactly is this a "rumour mill"? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-04/asio-arrests-key-witness-in-east-timor-spying-scandal/5132954 Most other papers and news outlets have picked up the same story, with exactly the same information. So no, I really have no idea what your problem is. The raids definitely took place, and Collaery and the whistleblower were definitely the targets. The whistleblower was apparently detained and had his passport cancelled, but obviously they're very limited in what they can publish about the whistleblower.
Garry, I lean more towards the left side of things, in most cases anyway, that is correct. However, I can be so far right that you wouldn't believe, it all depends on the subject. Under Labor the US was agreed to have 2000 more troops in Darwin, big mistake in my opinion. The espionage on Indonesia was done on labors watch, what a shame. That the idiot Abbott's couldn't apologize to the Indonesian President just shows, how little he really understands of our neighboring countries and their cultures. And more importantly, that he never becomes a diplomat, which is of the highest order in his job. He should stand down.... Liberals are more of a nasty breed, character wise. That showed plenty of times under Howard, and continues under Abbotts. I personally rate the quite low, when it comes to respect, ethics, moral values and so on. I don't trust them for 5 minutes. And es soon things get really dirty, its apologized for with the phrase: "Its in our national interest*. You know which leader (fuehrer) used the same phrase, do you? regards P.S.: you shouldn't write, that I discredit the Liberal Government on so many occasions, as the Libs, while in opposition, were the worst discrediting opposition ever.
You're right. They are centre-right biased. I'm pretty sure there is more to the story than "rumour and innuendo", as has been evidenced by the ongoing, broader media attention to it. Garry, i think you're the least partial 'contributor' to this forum. Perhaps you're a Liberal Party member.
Sorry to say that yes they did try to infer that the Whistle blower was arrested or at least detained (which if you are unaware, Arresting an individual is detaining them.) And questioned ALL based on the presumption of the Solicitor. They even attempt to infer confirmation of such by stating they spoke to "SOMEBODY" in his office. So yes the impression is laid to these as being facts, which is CLEARLY demonstrated by this thread. It does when you report his claims and attempt to get quotes from people who actually have no IDEA what has really occurred to say that they are correct. IN FACT, reporting the way this is done is incredibly bad , No were in the report was term of allegations. So the fact that when this article was written and posted, Nothing was considered as an allegation but as unsubstantiated facts as stated by a SOLICITOR. Isn’t it convenient that more information comes forward that states that the raids actually occurred. However, at the time of the article Brandis only stated he approved the warrants, as I posted originally. So sure a broken clock is right twice a day, but the rest of the time it is WRONG. Because this article was based entirely on the word of a SOLICITOR without any substantiation. The ABC stated that it believed this and that without any substantiation of claims. Just as the new rumour of HOLDEN putting off an announcement to exit Australian market in 2016. If the government representatives the ABC states it spoke too, wouldn’t you think the minister involved in discussions with them might have some idea??? AND if this was actually true, why would the minister sit on this longer when he can now blame it on the ALP but next year it will be extremely difficult to not accept any blame??? So??? Because other media groups are now reporting the ABC’s load of convolutions without any substantiation of fact means that it is TRUE??? Just again by the claims of about HOLDEN. I have not read the rest of the forum yet, but I am sure somebody has posted a Thread about this and proclaimed it as being something that will be OBVIOUSLY untrue and supaficial. Hey but it must be right, ALL the rest of the media is reporting it… Get REAL Of course you don’t because you have missed the point that people are rushing out criticising people with absolute unsubstantiated media reporting and proclaiming them as fact to simply score political points. When the truth comes forward it is actually different from their claims AS CLEARLY the creator of this thread has shown Yes the raids took place, but no the Whistleblower has not been shown to be any target and the fact you say such only goes further to demonstrate the fact that this article is Inferring something as fact without the reality being substantiated. Where is you substantiation of the claim anybody was detained??? The only substantiation of your comment is that his passport was cancelled. As put to parliament yesterday in statement by Brandis… Nobody has been detained, Arrested or even inconvenienced by questioning. The whistlebower has only had his passport cancelled. So by your own points of who is targeted and by who was detained shows clearly that you consider that the rumours and claims of a solicitor as inferred by the ABC are true accounts of facts that remain unsubstantiated. The very fact that not 24 hours after release of the original article the ABC change the claim of arrest and detention to cancelled passport with assertions of questioning clearly demonstrates that your final comment is based upon the fabrication of facts you proclaim are not inferred by the ABC.
Not to detract but we gathered this. Fair enough How little you obviously know the nuances of foreign affairs, how little do you understand what this would mean to the ALP/Greens association. How little you understand what this would mean for Australia in the long term. The fact he could crucify the ALP over this is incredible to believe that anybody would actually believe he is not being genuine to Australian interests. The very fact this occurred is not what is being demanded. NO confession is being demanded. Instead of believing everybody acts and thinks like yourself why don't you find out what they are demanding? Really that sour grapes has blinded you to reality. Are you aware that under the Greens and ALP coalition the claim that Australia does not kiss the feet of the US has been shown to be complete FRUAD with these claims??? The problem you have, is the very fact that ALL these politicians are as bad as each other. YOUR injustice is demonstrated here in this thread as being misguided to lay measurement with your own party preference. The very fact that only ONE elected official has been the closest to actually ask the hard questions on these issues is an INDEPENDENT. The ALP and the Greens ask the superficial questions and pose the rudimentary statements of little consequence (Just in case you do not know what I am talking about, THEY DON'T PUSH THE POINT) because they are obviously just as dirty as the Coalition on these matters. Should they push too hard they may get found out for having so much muck on their hands that even you would be ashamed. BUT YOU continue to use them as the measure. I don't write you discredit the Coalition, I write you TRY to discredit the Government with such superficiality it is sicking and hypocritical when you use the same media you previously proclaim as being BIAS... Big difference.
