You may think I am whatever you like but I don't simply sit around looking for ways to pretend I have better party than you because some superficial media report said so. Fact is, there is a great deal MORE to this story than this rumour and innuendo. The problem is, as ALL these politicians know; if you start the story in this manner people will ignore the truth of the matter. NOBODY here so far has even touched on the one undeniable fact of this issue is the clear demonstration of corruption this shows. As stated this does not stand on either side of politics because it is obvious that all about at this time have some implication of this matter due entirely of their actions NOW. Now only one media group has reported and touched on this point and HEY guess what, it was that media group all the ALP/Greens association love to hate. They pointed to the fact Downer requested these bugging operations and created an advisory group who were hired by the business who secured the rights to operate these deals. Now I don't know about your but without any real evidence other than the facts known by all, clearly you have insider trading issues, using government sources and funds for personal gain and simply industrial espionage charges at the very least. But hey, let us ignore the legal issues with this and use it to score our own political points so when this story is dropped because people are not getting facts but simple he said, she said, Downer will walk free of any scrutiny from anybody because it is no longer an interest. BUT ALL the claims in this thread are simply of the superficial claims of certain people. BAD media no matter what side you sit on, and diverts focus of the real issues to something of little to no consequences. P.S. Maybe your right, this could be a ploy of the Governments to cover the arse of a Coalition former minister, BUT all indications are that the ABC are just trying to find something to write and will create anything to fill there reports.
I must stand corrected, in several posts I have referred to Holden Rumour. As I stated that a thread would have been created, after looking about I see none AT THIS POINT. This in no way detracts from the fact a thread might occur and I would hope that my inference to any substance that should be contained within be ignored as they are only demonstrations of how the Media jumps on a story from any source. AND that simply reporting the same as each other does not make the report true or false.
Garry, why do you say how little I know about foreign affairs? I could ask how little you know about the right manners and obviously missing diplomacy skills of our PM? I have never witnessed any former PM being so clumsy. It wasn't too much asked except for a apology, which by history is not on the cards of our Liberal leaders, is it? Why would I discredit the government, if they discredit themselves on an almost daily basis? Accusing Labor for lying, but are the Libs any different? No.... One thing however they do get my credit for is saying no to the Grain Corp buyout attempt: http://au.news.yahoo.com/qld/a/20120281/joyce-explains-graincorp-buyout-rejection/ See, not all is bad with the Liberals..... My biggest fear is that we go down the drain, fairly quickly, whether it is the Quantas debacle or Holden or Ford or or or. Others can produce cars and make big profits, in countries with similar living standards and costs involved then ours, whether France or Germany or or or. Why can't we? I think we try to hard to be like America, and one day this will brake us our neck. And rather faster under Liberals, I am afraid to say... Smile and have a great day, regards
Because you just answered your own question. Because you believe that the Abbott is at fault for not proffering an apology for something that has never been substantiated. Look about and find that exclusive evidence of substantiation of the spying you wish to claim. What you consider good manners and diplomacy is obviously not necessarily what everybody else considers the same. THAT is why I say you know little about foreign affairs. For example there is something we do in Australia considered to be good manners that Indonesians consider to be one of the greatest insults as a friend found out with considerable fear for life. As for being clumsy, you forget Gillard so quickly. You know that first Woman PM of Australia. Oops you mean abstractly, so perhaps Rudd with his comments on China??? Maybe the Greens and their wrist flapping towards the Queen??? No, stop pretending one is better than the other. Remain consistent and stop measuring performance on your fairy tale of what others are doing. two reasons, THEY ARE NOT ASKING FOR AN APOLOGY and this would assume that the allegations are actually true. Are they TRUE??? You forgot to say IN YOUR OPINION... which is biased against the Coalition. So far it is only in your dreams they discredit themselves, just as the ALP and the Greens. Umm, maybe the Greens do discredit themselves with their hypocritical stances. I don't know about this one. While I do believe that Grain Corp should be kept in Australia and the fact that the buyout seems to show that considerable costs would need recovery. I wonder if Grain Corp can procure the finances needed to revamp their business holdings and have the ability to look to the future rather than remain in the status quo... BUT at this stage I do agree with the refection just concerned with the long term results due to OTHER policy in this area. It would not take much to change my mind on this one. I must say, maybe that sour grapes thing you seem to have going maybe starting to dissipate. Now maybe some real debate could begin.`
Further evidence that the ABC took everything Bernard Collaery said as Gospel Truth: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-...r-spying-illegal-under-australian-law/5134138
So what are you trying to show here??? That the ABC did not take his word as gospel because they believe that the spying allegations are not considered... Hang on let us get the exact wording "Mr Collaery is unlikely to be correct. Australia's foreign intelligence agencies have wide-ranging powers. One of the functions of ASIS is to engage in espionage in relation to negotiations between Australia and a foreign state to protect Australia's economic interests" Well due to the fact this thread was started from an article that states nothing of the truth of such allegations my question to you is how do you consider this article supports the validity of claims by the previous article??? The problem you have is the existence of this thread and the premise of the thread. It clearly demonstrates that people believe the unsubstantiated claims from the ABC have been taken as FACT. YOUR defence of the article as being only reporting the claims of others and not inferring anything has been shown by one simple fact… THIS THREAD.
Garry, you are a hardcore Libs man, there is nothing we can do. Whatever comes up, you question it, because in your rightish believe the Libs can't do anything wrong..... However, you never question the other side of things, its a pity, I think. Again, as you deny even the claims of spying, I won't further comment on your response. No hard feelings, regards
I question everything that comes up regardless of party politics It has nothing to do with being Coalition or ALP/Greens. As pointed out to you, there is something far deeper with this than the superficial yet you continue to categorise your comments to party politics. I find that strange. LOL... Never question the other side??? That is pure garbage and you know it. I do not deny the spying claims, fact is I know it happened. I deny the fact anybody has proven them and expect to demand to justify them. As the Greens and the ALP throw about subversive yet inconsequential claims of the acts they do nothing of real justice to the claims. If you have not noticed, it would show that these people are far more implicated than you wish to give credit. No, again you miss the point but wish be indignant about the fact your entire thread was created on the word of a media organisation (the ABC) with the same fervour and innuendo than the reality of the situation. It is obvious you have not considered any real aspects of this issue just the superficiality of all the parties reporting and laying claims. As the issue has emerged it has been shown to be far more involved than the shallow creation of this thread.
What has happened to the Indonesian President and during the East Timor negotiations is purely low, stupid and shows an immense kind of disrespect. It makes me as an Australian throw up. We are always good in telling others how just and rightful we are, but hey, maybe there is a lot we can learn ourselves before we put us ahead of other nations. Everyone with the right sense of justice might see it just that way. As this thread doesn't fruit any further, I think we can move on. Happy weekend to all of you....
It doesn't support the validity of the claims in the previous article at all garry, it just contradicts your assertion that the ABC presents everything Collaery has said as "fact". Does "unlikely to be correct" sound like a "fact" to you garry? Does writing a whole fact checking article proving that something Collaery said is "unlikely to be correct" backup your assertion that the ABC presents everything he says as fact? To quote our PM, "No one, however smart, however well-educated, however experienced … is the suppository of all wisdom”. Just because Collaery gave an interview and the ABC printed it doesn't mean that it was framed as gospel truth.
I know what you’re saying, but the point of this thread exists clearly backs what I am saying. The originator of the thread CLEARLY believes the article is fact. As you point to they actually don't say it is, they infer in way of presentation and attempt to gain credible sources (which they clearly have not achieved) to present the article as fact rather than innuendo. Again the premise of this thread clearly demonstrates many are prepared to accept this article as fact, along with allegations of spying (which have not been shown or proven as facts) and is clearly creating an opinion based entirely on rumour and innuendo. Their opinion is based on an article devoid of any fact or substance portrayed by the OP as something of fact and not the Rumour. As I do not feel the OP is that stupid or gullible I consider there is only one of two reasons they would promote this article as anything of substance. Which is blind hatred of anything against their own political agenda OR the article was written in the manner to make it sound as facts rather than what it actually is. I don’t believe the OP is that bad, THUS the article is not alright. BUT again, I do question my assessment of the OP all the time and I may be wrong of their ability. The fact that this issue has focused on the spying and pretence of current government trying to cover for previous government impropriety rather than the fact that this issue shows MORE to political corruption of politician or parliament. Look about, nobody is even looking to this as anything BECAUSE the supposed impropriety of what is claimed to be issues based entirely on an article of innuendoes and rumour. The fact that Collaery was interviewed does not mean it is gospel truth, the fact that they continued to interview others with the basis of claims of people being arrested or detained. People who are not witness or even communicating with anybody of any knowledge of issues and reporting them as being good authority of the issue DOES make the ABC trying to frame the claims as gospel truth. Fact is the allegations of detention, arrest and interrogations of the anybody is actually a falsification that was FRAMED as being true are now found to be unfounded and untrue. The ONLY action was that the person in question had his passport revoked. As stated this THREAD demonstrates my claim of the article, no matter how you wish to defend it, and the fact that much of what has occurred has blinded people to other points of what has occurred (as stated, corruption). Your justification of the article is clearly wrong as the article is clearly demonstrated as being framed as fact without the truth of reality.
