A question of trust of fellow citizens

yes, a NICS database with the following record for all checks:

-name of seller & buyer
-date of check
-serial # of gun.

that's it.

such data can only be accessed when a gun is recovered in a crime, and the possesser "lost" is receipt of the background check and seller also doesn't have it.

you can even require a warrant to access the data.

what's the problem?

only paranoid, hyperbolic, NWO-fearing Alex Jones types would be against such a thing.

and for the record, EVERY gun sale should have a background check.

you never know when a buyer may be wanted for murder, robbery, or raping a child.

 

We are talking about our government crafting a law that can be enforced without registration. There are criminals in the country that will do exactly what you are saying. They won't do background checks and you can't force them to without a national database of all firearms.

 

Who might this "no one believes" person or persons happen to be and on what do they base their "belief"?

What else in life comes with any "absolute guarantees" besides death and taxes?

Since when has anyone had to "ensure" that something will absolutely happen before it became the Law of the Land. Even Jefferson wasn't certain that the constitutional government was going to work. Why is it any different now?

Furthermore why do you support lethal weapons making it into the hands of the wrong people because that is what is happening right now?

Do you have any feasible alternatives that will "ensure" that will stop happening?

Or do you just want to allow lethal weapons to continue to fall into the hands of the wrong people and allow the carnage to continue at the cost of hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars each and every year by doing nothing whatsoever about his serious problem?

 

Who exactly is fostering this "distrust" of We the People and why are they doing so?

Let's get down to the real motivations behind what is happening.

What basis is there to "distrust" We the People?

Have millions of innocent gun owners had their guns "confiscated" by We the People?

Have millions of innocent gun owners been harassed or threatened by We the People?

Or are we dealing with a campaign of deliberate disinformation by special interests who seek to make massive profits out of playing on the unfounded fears of millions of innocent gun owners?

What exactly is the source of this distrust and why are they doing it?

We the People are not taking any of the actions that they are being accused of doing.

So who is spreading this misinformation about We the People and how are the profiting by doing so?

 

Maybe millions (sic) have not had their guns confiscated by the government, but in states that DID outlaw weapons, they were required to register or turn them over. Later certain features were outlawed.

It is an incremental grab and I do not trust the federal government. And, no offense, but I don't trust anyone with my personal information (you know, the guy I do business with keeping paper on me.)

Anything the government can identify and find, they can take at some point - for any reason or non reason.

 

No state can deny anyone their 2A rights to own a gun so that is disinformation. States do have a right to regulate gun ownership but they cannot deny anyone their 2A rights unless they have violated the law.

As far as your personal information goes it is not We the People who are the problem. Corporations have all of your personal information right down to the brand of toilet paper you prefer. They know what you watch on TV and which websites you visit. They have every single detail of your life, including how much you earn, in their databases.

If you don't trust anyone with your personal information why are you are willing to allow corporations to have so much detail about you?

And those corporations can, and do, take money out of your bank account on a regular basis. Even your bank does that.

Somehow they are more trustworthy than We the People?

 

Thank you for your detailed response.

Let's delve a little deeper into motivations behind why the states are passing those laws.

A police captain who was giving a lecture that I was attending made a point that bears repeating. He said that every single regulation that they are required to follow is because the police brought it upon themselves. For example cops used to just enter and search a suspects home without a warrant because nothing was stopping them from doing so. Cops wouldn't inform a suspect of their rights because nothing was requiring them to do so. Cops, like everyone else, will take advantage of whatever they can because they are human just like everyone else.

(FYI I am not "bashing" the police. I work with them and I understand the challenges they face in their jobs. The above was just to set the scene for the point I am making. )

You stated that there are hundreds of millions of unregistered guns together with high capacity magazines and other military style options that increase lethality many times over. What we are witnessing on the news on a daily basis is a crime wave of guns being used to kill more and more people. It has become an epidemic.

Needless to say this causes politicians to want to address the problem to reduce this in some way or another. And yes, some states have already done so and to date the courts have upheld the right of states to regulate to ensure public safety.

So my point is that the existing "gun culture" of hundreds of millions of unregulated guns has resulted in this current gun crime wave.

That makes these state regulations a "self inflicted" imposition on gun owners because they have stymied all reasonable measures to prevent this deluge of hundreds of millions of unregulated guns from causing the current crime wave.

Furthermore if they (and I include myself in that group) continue to oppose these regulations they will only find themselves ostracized and identified as being part of the problem rather than the solution.

In essence there must be regulations to stop the gun crime wave because nothing else is going to stop it. (No one has ever provided any feasible alternative to date.)

Therefore it becomes a matter of accepting reasonable and sane regulations to reduce the gun crime wave or face ever more onerous impositions in the future. No one will ever overturn the 2nd Amendment so guns will never be "confiscated" but the regulations surrounding owning them will become ever more burdensome unless gun owners accept that something needs to be done to stop the gun crime wave that we are currently experiencing.

 

NO state has outlawed weapons. SMFH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state

 

How about someone establishing the relevance of such a move first. What percentage of crimes are committed with a legally purchased gun by the individual who purchased it?

 

what do you guys REALLY have against background checks?

do you think its wrong to make sure criminals and folks wanted for murder, are trying to buy a gun?

do you hate the hassel of a background check?

 

Because background checks are not meant to work Ron, they are meant to fail. They are meant to fail because then politicians can say "well, that's not working so we need something stronger", and so it will go until they are kicking in doors to take all guns.

If NICS was meant to work, why does it only receive about 5% of the funds it was allocated?

If NICS was meant to work, why do they not arrest and prosecute criminals who attempt to buy guns by lying on the 4473?

If NICS was meant to work, why do people with documented criminal and mental health problems pass the background checks?

 

blaim the GOP, who refuses to fully fund the ATF.

by the way, your theory that the NICS was created to fail, is kinda silly.

 

i blame the Right for funding the drug war, at all. don't the republicans know a war on drugs is nowhere to be found in Their doctrine.

 

The gun crime epidemic that I am referring to are mass shootings. Back in the 1980's they averaged about 2 per year. According to the FBI there were 160 between 2000 and 2013 which was 13.3 year per year but that doesn't tell the full story. The pace of shootings is accelerating.

There were 363 mass shootings in 2013.

http://www.shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2013

336 in 2014

http://www.shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2014

353 in 2015 up to San Bernadino.

http://www.shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015

We are talking about a mass shooting every single day of the year.

That is an epidemic because people are dying!



So while the states are trying to do something about this epidemic they are handicapped by states that are doing nothing. It doesn't matter one iota if NY or IL decide to ban 30 round magazines if all it takes is a short drive over the state line to buy as many as someone wants.

In that respect it takes federal action to regulate otherwise the carnage of We the People will continue to worsen and ultimately even those who are law abiding gun owners will suffer because of those who are responsible for the slaughter.

Either all states regulate in a manner that support the regulations of other states or they will be faced with having federal regulations imposed on them because the blood bath cannot continue the way it is currently going. We the People will start demanding that something is done by Congress if the states cannot stop this from happening.

There is another aspect to this that needs to be addressed too. This epidemic is costing taxpayers about $220 billion a year. For those who want to see a reduction in government spending this is a good place to start because it is feasible and has the support of about 80% of the population, gun owners included.

 

You Start out with a false presupposition.

http://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2280&context=law_lawreview

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-04-29/news/9202070991_1_handgun-ban-myer-elgin

Yep, it's local ordinances, but they are done with the full support of the almighty state. I'm only listing the first.

Now, as per your second false presupposition:

I deal primarily in cash. I don't have a Facebook account; I have never sent a "Tweet" and I don't use a Socialist Surveillance Number (ooops...."Social Security Number") for identification. While it's impossible to stop all the snooping that goes on in your life, you can stop a lot of it.

I don't trust all those people who create databases and will tell anyone out there to use extreme caution. You openly recite your SSN to a doctor's receptionist and the receptionist and umpteen people have access to your ID. You get a customer "loyalty card" and MILLIONS of people now have access to your grocery list. The grocer isn't too "loyal" to you, is he?

I'd tell all of you if you to have to use a "loyalty card," get it under an assumed name and pay cash for each transaction.

I don't have cable or satellite either. I have an old fashioned antennae. I don't bank via the computer. For every objection you can lodge against me, I've addressed it publicly over the last thirty plus years. You have a Right to Privacy and it is up to YOU to protect it.

 

the NRA's hoplophiles hate new gun laws because they want the gun dealers to be wealthy, the gun makers to be wealthy, and criminals to have as many guns as they desire.

 

The left wastes the time of gun owners who sleep on this issue. Allow me:

There are two kinds of mass shooters:

1) Jihadists

2) Young white males between 17 and 35 who are on a schedule of drugs known as SSRIs.

With jihadists, we have to formally declare war and be willing to fight. With the disenfranchised whites who are being put on "legal" drugs, we have to hold the medical community accountable. Psychotropic drugs should only be administered in controlled environments. Far too many loons don't take their drugs as prescribed and they commit acts of violence. That is not the gun's fault. It is the fault of the drugs.

The right needs to get off their sorry arses and address this post haste. The answer to mass shootings is not in gun control, but rather at the root of the problem. ALL mass shootings are done by jihadists or by young white people who have been prescribed SSRIs and / or by people who have been under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist. Hold mental health officials accountable

 

why, cause you feel UBC will lead to confiscation of all firearms and then the UN/Illumunati taking over the USA, and put more fluoride in our drinking water?

 

You are citing a case that was overturned by the SCOTUS Heller decision upholding the 2nd Amendment therefore it is utterly meaningless and merely goes to prove my point.

 

i didn't say the NICS system should keep permanent records of your gun types.

just serial #


but, have it your way.

any gun found during the committing of a crime will be checked for a background check receipt, and if the criminal doesn't have a copy of his receipt, we will assume he didn't get a background check so he will get an additional 5 years in prison and a $1,000 fine.