Busting the Myth of Separation of Church and State

Here's something that may surprise many people --

Less than 20 percent of Americans were active in church affairs in 1776.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3401803559.html


The Churching of America, 1776-2005

 

Once we made the DOI the states were independent, at least once we one and signed the treaty of Paris. They then got together under the articles of Confederation. They were as independent as France is from Germany. Why do you think they wrote the constitution?

 

Not only did most towns have only 1 church but many states only recognized one religion. By one church I mean it was the only church in town as most towns were small and populated by people of the same religion. Im not talking NYC. I can remember back in the 50s even going to my Grandpas farm in Pennsylvania. We had to drive like 50 miles to NY to find a catholic church when we were there.

The point is states were allowed to have official religions and the 1st was meant to protect that right not remove it.

 

Yet congress starts every session with a prayer.

- - - Updated - - -

But its not the same as the interpretation used today. It was a one way wall.

 

Jefferson's "wall of separation" phrase was first spotlighted by the Supreme Court in 1878 in
Reynolds v. United States :

From the ruling:
<snip>

"At the first session of the first Congress the amendment now under consideration was proposed with others by Mr. Madison. It met the views of the advocates of religious freedom, and was adopted.

Mr. Jefferson afterwards, in reply to an address to him by a committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, took occasion to say: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god; that he owes account to noneother for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, -- I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order."



More on Jefferson' letter: http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html

 

No, *most* towns didn't. And most certainly not "everyone attended." There were smaller churches, but there were different denominations in towns, primarily Congregationalist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian and Baptist.

And they didn't have nearly the attendance you think they did.

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=442570&p=1065810476#post1065810476

Click the links above and read for a bit.

 

As we trudged into the mid 19th century, church participation grew to about 35% -- but there was a slew of differing sects that arose, (see Second Great Awakening) - many small houses of worship of all kinds popping up. Also, Catholicism started to expand then as well. (Catholic accounted for only a small percentage in 1776, with it exploding by 1850)

 

Again interference is what they are worried about

Here you have church expecting the government to give public land to the church. Which is a form of interference.

Again here they state separation and it's not in the Constitution. What they are afraid of is interference, (encroachment)

 

The thing is, if you believe complete separation is what they wanted, you need to show where they ever had it and until the 1947 USSC ruling, they never did have separation. Both church and state intermingled quite often. Still do.

 

Bull(*)(*)(*)(*). Free exercise of religion doesn't mean you can compel others to participate. And anybody who thinks an athlete us free to not participate in the coach's prayer has never played organized sports. The coach is an authority figure. If he is a public employee, he has no business imposing his religion on his players.

Pray on your own time.

Sing religious songs on your own time. Why should students who don't share your religious beliefs be expected to sing religious songs?

All of the releases I've seen from the US Dept of Ed and Supreme Court cases I'm aware of having made a clear distinction between teacher/faculty religious expression and student religious expression. If some school prohibited a student from thanking god in a speech, the student should file a complaint and sue them.

 

Which is why the lawful and peaceful revolution should create an amendment where federal elections have an empty line titled "Judges to be considered for impeachment". Wherein congressional review with investigation and vote upon evidence presented by the public gives justification to impeach.

Let's get the checks and balances working!

 

So they can be tried and convicted of fraud if they have incorrect biblical teachings?

If they were they would all be disbanded. Their leaders locked up for seven hundred year sentences, and perhaps even their cathedrals seized by the government for non payment of taxes.

 

High school football coach suspended for praying alone ...



wreg.com/.../high-school-football-coach-suspended-for-pray...





WREG&#8209;TV




Nov 2, 2015 - Bremerton High School assistant coach Joe Kennedy, whose suspension Wednesday came a day before the school's final regular game of the ...


Valedictorian unplugged over God comments - NBC News



www.nbcnews.com/.../valedictorian-unplugged-over-god...

Jun 21, 2006 - She says it was free speech, officials say it was preaching. ... LAS VEGAS — A Las Vegas school district and free speech advocates are defending school officials' decision to cut short a high school valedictorian's commencement speech, saying it would have amounted to school ...


SPEAKING OUT: Texas Valedictorian on School Cutting His ...



insider.foxnews.com/.../remington-reimer-speaks-out-after-texas-hs-cut-...



Jun 14, 2013 - ... was cut short when school officials objected to his references to God and ... Valedictorian on School Cutting His Speech on God, Constitution.

 

America Acknowledges God


Congress inserted Under God in the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954 in order to combat the rise of atheistic communism and reaffirm that &#8220;America was &#8216;founded on a belief in God.'&#8221;



In God We Trust was first inscribed on U.S. coins in 1864 under President Lincoln, and in 1956 Congress made it the national motto of the United States.



Since at least the 1820&#8217;s, the U.S. Supreme Court has opened its court sessions with the prayer of &#8220;God save the United States and this Honorable Court.&#8221;


Since George Washington first added &#8220;so help me God&#8221; to his inaugural oath, every president since has likewise asked for God&#8217;s assistance at his inauguration.


Since the Supreme Court&#8217;s building was constructed in the 1930&#8217;s, a marble frieze on the south wall of the courtroom has featuredMoses with the two tablets of the Decalogue.


Since its first meeting in 1774, Congress has opened its sessions with prayer, usually given by its official chaplains in both houses.
When our nation was attacked on September 11, 2001, the members of Congress spontaneously sang &#8220;God Bless America&#8221; on the steps of the Capitol building.
Since 1775, with the introduction of the chaplaincy into the Army and Navy, every branch of the U.S. armed forces has provided chaplains to facilitate the worship of God in our military.
On October 3, 1789, one week after Congress approved the Bill of Rights, Pres. George Washington recognized &#8220;the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor,&#8221; and therefore declared a national &#8220;day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors ofAlmighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.&#8221;
On October 3, 1789, recognizing &#8220;the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God,&#8221; Pres. Washington declared a national day of thanksgiving and prayer thanking God for His &#8220;many signal favors,&#8221; including the Constitution.
Our first federal judiciary was established by the Judiciary Act of 1789, which required federal judges to end their oath of office with &#8220;So help me God.&#8221;
From 1795 until the 1860&#8217;s, Christian church services were held on Sundays in the Capitol building in Washington, D.C., attended by such presidents as Jefferson, Madison, John Quincy Adams, and Lincoln, and many other government officials. (At left, the Capitol in 1800.)
A statue of Moses holding the Ten Commandments is featured in the rotunda of the Library of Congress.
The Ten Commandments are symbolized in the floor of the National Archives Building in Washington , D.C.
In front of the Ronald Reagan Building in Washington, D.C. is a sculpted figure leaning on the Ten Commandments. An inscription reads, &#8220;Our liberty of worship is not a concession nor a privilege but an inherent right.&#8221;
A cross and the Ten Commandments are sculpted on a large trylon (3-sided column) in front of the E. Barrett Prettyman Federal Courthouse in Washington, D.C.
Based on the Thanksgiving tradition started by the Pilgrims and recognized by other Presidents like George Washington,President Abraham Lincoln declared the last Thursday in November, 1863, as &#8220;a day of thanksgiving and prayer to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens.&#8221; All Presidents since then have annually called on the nation to thank God in the Thanksgiving season.


The Thomas Jefferson Memorial in Washington, D.C. quotes excerpts from our third President&#8217;s bill titled the Virginia Statute Establishing Religious Freedom, which passed the Virginia Legislature on January 16, 1786: &#8220;Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens . . . are a departure from the plan ofthe Holy Author of our religion.&#8221;

Photo: Flickr User

http://morallaw.org/resources/america-acknowledges-god/

 

Praying on the 50 yard line is not "praying alone".

Reimer's speech was cut short because he didn't stick to the speech he submitted. Other students mentioned god with no issues. And the school district apologized to him.

Your claims of free exercise restriction are nonsense.

 

It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the chamber of the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House&#8212;a practice that continued until after the Civil War&#8212;were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and
a "crowded audience."[29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol#Early_religious_use

Does any of this look like Jefferson wanted total separation of church and state, or could it be no interference?

 

He did it by his self and asked no one to pray with him. Government has no obligation to shield your eyes or ears from anything religious. You just can't be forced to take part.

 

I have no doubt if someone wanted to spend the money to take it back to the USSC, that ruling of separation would be over turned. There is to much in our history that shows that interference is what Jefferson meant and that the First Amendment means just what it says and not separation.

 

You need to check your sources. He did it on the 50 yard line after games. And he was joined by players from both teams. He was not alone. And if you think players don't feel pressure to follow their coaches, you have never played organized sports. He should have stuck to praying on his own time.

You're tilting at windmills.

 

Don't give a damn. Especially when you said both teams joined him. It would be different, maybe if he had gone to his own players or just his own players came to him and did it. But forgetting even that. I think I have plainly showed that our First Amendment doesn't mean separation of church and state. Never had it, never did it.

 

...we only need go as far as Alabama.

 

We only need to go as far as paying clergy for saying the morning prayer before Congress. We did that from the very first day we became a nation and are still doing it. It's stupid to try and say separation is what it means when we never had it or did it. But that's what you get when you have a Liberal USSC.

 

And, yet,

The Judicature rarely says, thanks there our good civatus, for bringing it to our attention. It must have been a simple oversight.

 

Thomas Jefferson had many disagreements with our constitution. The very idea of having a constitution that still applies to today's society is an idea that Jefferson opposed, he believed that a new constitution should be written every 19 years so that one generation would not be given authority over another.

Jefferson's political leanings were anti-federalist, but the constitution we drafted was a compromise between federalists and anti-federalists. Jefferson himself was not a signer of the constitution, as he was in France at the time of its ratification

Prior to the 14th amendment, the bill of rights did not apply to the state governments. It is the due process clause in the 14th amendment that applies most of the bill of rights to the states as well as the federal government

What exactly do you think people mean when they say separation of church and state?

It's simple really, the state does not establish an official religion, nor does it prohibit the free practice of religion, nor does it institute any religious requirements to run for political office. In short, the religion of the people is left to the people, and not the government

..that's pretty much the universal interpretation of what separation of church and state is

 

<Off-topic>

So the way you figure it, either of those can, e.g., operate an airline, and pay the victims of a crash if it is found culpable in court. Pretty much got that bang on, haven't I?

Of course it doesn't, to those who refuse to understand what a corporation is.