You do know that people are still thinking while asleep, don't you? And even while unconscious. When visiting someone who is unconscious in the hospital, you will usually be cautioned to be careful what you say, the unconscious can hear and absorb more than you realize. That is because asleep and/or unconscious people still have working brains.
That matter regarding comatose and unconscious individuals is debatable and is still being debated. Some functions of the brain work while the individual is in a coma or unconscious, etc. but some do not. I do not believe science has actually determined for a fact that comatose individuals and those who are unconscious have the ability to form thought, let alone rational thought, but I could be wrong. The brain can often respond to stimuli while in a state of unconsciousness, but responding to stimuli is very different from actually having the ability to form rational thoughts (for instance the ability to declare the wish to live or to die). This is a friendly challenge, and you can certainly decline, but I would be interested if you could find material which factually and beyond question supports the theory that the unconscious or comatose mind can think and rationalize with responses to such questions as "do you want to live?" rather than it just being a case of responding to stimuli, which is far more common.
That is an interesting question. The point I was making though refers to a poster implying that the brain isn't working while asleep so the reasoning goes it is OK to kill a sleeping person since the sleeping person isn't aware. A sleeping person is somewhat aware, i.e. my statement that a sleeping mother wakes quickly when her baby cries. The ability to do that while maintaining the ability to sleep through sounds the brain decides are not important suggests some reasoning is going on. What do you think? http://advancedlifeskills.com/blog/what-is-your-brain-doing-while-you-are-sleeping/ During sleep our brain is, in fact, extraordinarily active. As it turns out, much of that activity helps the brain to learn and remember. Sleeping is involved in the learning and memory process in several important ways. Lets look at 3 of them.
I would have to agree in terms of those who are asleep, but I'm not entirely sure about those in a state of actual unconsciousness ie knocked out, under anesthetics or comatose.
how is it any different from an animal? Try to sneak up on a cat or a deer sleeping? Do you think killing a deer is wrong?
You know that is the core of the issue. Its not about whether the Fetus is alive or not. Whether the pain is there. Whether or not the importance of life is there. So sir, say yesterday you did something that annoyed someone in the parking lot of a food store. Well he decides to BLAM! Sorry man you just didn't draw fast enough. This is NOT Anarchy and personally I don't want to live in anarchy. There are sets of rules to living. A standard I suppose you could say written on the human conscience. These are those unalienable rights among which are LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These are those things which are owned by a man. Not by anyone else no matter what they do, or try to do, or have done. They are inalienable. They are written on the mind of every human. All know they are possessed. Some though truly despise these rights for selfish reasons. America was founded on on recognizing these right though. Its what any honest and true society is founded on. That is what makes human life special. Not someones (or any ones) opinion or ideas. Not the majority nor the minority decide this. Its the eternal property of every man,woman,and child. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Where did I patronise or condescend? It was not my intention to do so and I would like to know how and where I did.
Are you asking me to explain why I think killing certain innocents is ok? You can find the answer to the question at post # 11 at the top of page 2. So I dont know what you were waiting for, but it seems more likely you have actually been avoiding discussion rather than waiting for it.
What makes you say they are "written on the human conscience"? What does that even mean? What's "liberty" include here? The liberty to shoot people in parking lots? I disagree re "any honest and true society." My own is a good example. How does it make humans special? And why do only humans get these rights? You say that but, at the end of the day, these rights mean absolutely nothing if no one adheres to them and no one supports them.
It matters because it's our species. The one to which we belong. Because it's our species. The one to which we belong. It's special because we have evolved that way. We're the only species who have the ability to do that. We have laws because we have the power to reason and understand cause and effect that other species don't have, or only have in a very limited way. You might say that these abilities of the human race is what has always made it special.
Why should that be significant? See above. But these abilities ARE NOT shared by the human race - only parts of the human race. Children, mentally disabled, senile etc - none of these people have the power to reason. Additionally, what is so special about the ability to reason to begin with? Its certainly unique but I dont see what makes it "special"
Our society takes care of those people. Some don't, but we do. Without it, you wouldn't give a monkey's about anything. That's what makes it special. As for the rest, we've decided to place ourselves above other species. Our reasoning ability and superior physical and mental abilities allowed us to do this. We discovered that living an orderly life as part of a society is better than grubbing about in the dirt looking for insects etc. to shove in our gobs. As for the rest, we've decided to place ourselves above other species. Our reasoning ability and superior physical ad mental abilities allowed us to do this.
I don't think special is the way to describe it. Human life is simply the fittest life form on the planet, and due to evolution we have become much different than other organisms, even our extremely closely related primates. The two main factors that make us more fit (or advanced for those who do not understand the reference) would be our ability of precision grip and our overly developed frontal lobes. Due to these factors, we have been able to create what seems to be unrealistic thoughts, or imagination, yet when combined with the ability to grip tools and the logic we have from our frontal lobes, we can attempt to apply these imaginations to reality. If you look at many things that exist within society (possibly including the concept of society itself) we find that most components of our lives are made up things that we collectively allow to exist as a whole population of humans. Things like nations, governments, global economy, etc. are all abstract concepts that may seem to be physically extroverted throughout our society, but in reality are simply things that we ALLOW to exist because of our overly evolved/developed brains. This is also the precise reason as to why none of these concepts are seen to exist in groups of other organisms, as they simply do not have the ability to grasp on to things of such nature (or else rise of the planet of the apes would be happening). So i don't think it's that human life is special, but just evolutionary advanced to the point where we live in a world that no other existing organism (on Earth that is) has the mental capacity to live in as we do. Therefore human life is better than other life (sorry Naturalists) and there is no mystical or unexplainable special trait that we can't understand that sets us apart from the world (sorry to every non-atheist), and this simple truth is what makes me pro-choice, because an aborted fetus is just that, an aborted fetus, and there really isn't anything else top it (unless that fetus is used for stem cells, in which case it is very beneficial to society in it's own way). P.S. I loved this thread. got me really thinking, more than most threads do.
Humans have a soul and are made I'm the image of God. That makes humans special.you can blather on for years about how you don't belive this fact, but it doesn't change the fact that it is true.
How do you know we are made in the "image o f God" ? Since humans vary greatly in their appearance which ones do you think look like god? And who told YOU, or showed you, what god looks like?
Which could be used as an argument for not just abortion, but forced abortion (i.e. like what's going on in some parts of China). Certainly this could be used as an argument in favor of mandatory sterilization. Yet you don't support those things. "Abortion on demand has, in my judgment, contributed significantly to an environment in our country in which life has become very cheap." — Robert Casey, Democratic Party Senator
Personally I support choice over force every time. There are many contributions that have led to the idea of life being cheap, abortion is not one of them.
Life has always been cheap.....ask the Pentagon, ask historians (those are people who know history), they will tell you it didn't start in 1973 even though very dishonest people want others to think it did...
Well, if life is cheap, shouldn't personal choice be even cheaper? How can you hold individual choice in high regard but not hold life in high regard; for without the right to life there is no personal choice.
I'm pro-choice but the answer is simple. It is because we are human. Name any other species that values other species more than its own?
