Something new about the Trans rights movement

Point of order. What Klinger was doing would have been classified as cross dressing or Drag Queen. Klinger still identified as a male. He never once claimed otherwise on the show. And given the issue, it is important to separate out the DQ's from the TG's

 

The correct term is Intersexed. While a hermaphrodite is a possible intersexed condition, it is an extremely rare one. It also tends to be identified as having both vagina and penis, not breast and penis. Especially in light of many cis men whose breast tissue does grow to be similar to the stereotypical ideas of women's breast.

We also have a documented condition known as chimeraism, which is thought to be the results of fraternal twins having one zygote die and being absorbed by the other. So far the documented cases have been proven between fraternal twins of the same sex, but there is nothing to suggest that it can't occur between fraternal twins of the opposite sex. And it is very rare, need specific in fact, for DNA testing to be done at two separate site on a given human's body. So this is another possibility for why some people are transgender.

 

Often I wouldn't know. Sometimes I would know, because they told me or because they are competing at high level in a sports competition and it is a known fact.

 

Your gender identity is internal to your mind. Your biology is not. You can identify as another gender, race or even species too, and that would be in your mind, but your DNA remains the same.

 

Except this is not about what you perceive about yourself. Nobody is questioning a person's right to think what they want about themselves. This is about imposing that belief on others and demanding that they perceive or pretend to perceive you how you want.

 

I see the trans movement as a great opportunity to get rid of gender segregation generally. If one gender is given special rights (ie, avoiding the draft) that the other is denied, but people can simply declare themselves the other gender, this creates an obvious conflict and impetus to get rid of the gender double standards.

 

This is where you are not keeping up with the evolving language. In most cases nowadays, when one talks about the body, the biology, that is a person's sex. Their gender is their identity. Now identity doesn't guarantee a given expression or roles or anything. Those are social constructs.

However, since you brought up DNA, I have never gotten a set consistent answer to what constitutes sex. Three factors are commonly matched for a given sex: genitals, chromosomes and SRY gene presence. However, any one can easily be different from the others. Thing is we rarely every see any of them save under specific conditions. Which makes claims that so and so is actually this sex or that sex unfounded, because even the person in question probably doesn't know what their chromosomes and/or SRY presence is, and the claim is most often made without ever seeing their genitals.

 

Isn't that working both ways though? Keep in mind that very few, if any, transgenders are claiming that their bodies are other than what they are born as. The claim is that their self is different from their body. By calling a transgender person by their sex pronoun instead of their gender pronoun, you then impose your belief upon them. The belief that their body is more them than their self is. Basically, when it comes to belief, at least in this context, there is no way to not impose one belief over the other, outside of avoiding knowingly interacting. Obviously at some point, you'll meet transgender people whom you will never know are transgender unless they or someone else in the know tells you. Likewise, you might well meet cis gender people and not believe it when they tell you they are cis gendered. There are several news stories of how cis women were mistaken for MtF transwomen. So you will at some point fall into the same belief as them, that they are their gender, without realizing it, or impose your belief that they are what they are not.

 

I'll agree here that there is a lot in the way of sex/gender segregation that simply is unnecessary.

 

What if some are kind of telling you how to identify? So now it's rude and inaccurate to identify either a trans person or someone you know as a biological male or female. It would be correct to call someone medically assigned male or female at birth. I don't know all the latest chromosome discoveries but dont you think this is a bit narcissistic?

 

I am glad you are so informed.

How'd you become so much of an expert?

 

having several friends within the transgendered community. Not to mention research for threads like this one.

 

It really wouldn't be an issue if we didn't gender segregate in society. But we do, so it is. And them demanding to be treated as the opposite gender as society otherwise views them is a bigger ask than other civil rights movements asking only to be treated as people.

 

The laws are intended for biological sex and if men and women are being treated the same by law, it wouldn't matter which sex you were or identified as. In any case, we recognize there are distinct biological differences and simply viewing yourself differently does not overcome those differences. So laws have in fact made some exceptions where it was allowed to protect women.

That being said, are trans-women (biological Males) in need of these protections that are given to women? It is unlikely except in certain circumstances where the man has transitioned early enough to alter they physiology to such a degree. Unfortunately, there is no way to address those exceptions to any reasonable degree. Some countries have tried to make laws that specifically make exceptions for trans-women who are in treatment and transitioning but not trans-women that identify with a different sex but are not transitioning. It is problematic because we have separated society between men and women, but these people don't seem to fit in any group.
We are left with accepting them at the cost of women or rejecting them at the cost of themselves. The imperfect and unfortunate position I am left with is to let them choose to retain their male biology unmolested and compete in sports as a man or to choose to transition to a woman and be at a disadvantage in sports as they are still forced to compete with men. I cannot choose to allow them to be included as a women and disadvantage women in sports because of their own choice to transition to a different sex even if is better fit with their identity. Many people are born disadvantaged and cannot and will never be able to compete in sports for whatever reasons and we cannot make exceptions them. I see this a being little different than that.

 

Neither. I balance them to be more consistent with reality. In many cases, self perceptions need to be tested against others in order to be more consistent and objective.

 

Yes but women are allowed to wear men clothes but men cannot wear women's clothes. It is discriminatory against a sex in any regard. Personally I think its a mistake to think that what cloths you wear should be anything but to impose certain perceptions of yourself onto others. ie.. a nice suit and tie at a job interview. Also, comfort and confidence might be other emotional necessities. I really don't understand wearing cloths for self expression though.

In some cases, the image created by a man wearing women's cloths might be a detriment to their business. I have had employers sometimes make people cover tattoos, trim their hair, and remove earrings in order to maintain a certain business image. I am not against this so long as there is a legit business reason and it isn't done just out of a personal distaste for the person and their choice to dress as a woman.

 

Here's one way to see this. I know that I am not an expert in any single person's gender. Its between him/her and a personal physician who may have clinical knowledge I am not privy to. I don't have a chromosome study. I probably have not inspected his genitalia. I have no clue about his estrogen or testosterone levels. All I know is that I perceive specific characteristics I normally associate with a specific gender. I am just bowing to someone who has more information on this subject than I do.

 

I just think it is good manners to try not to offend people right to their face. I am more frequently encountering people I have to make an effort to not say ma'am or sir to because I am not really sure which way they are going based on their appearance and or mannerisms. In an odd way, that alone is making us less civil if we cannot even exercise routine manners without offending someone. Last time it happened was when I went for the covid shot. The person checking me I honestly didn't know if they were a man or a woman, but based on the lack of any boobs, I assumed they probably were a man who identified as a woman based solely on their soft voice and the necklace they were wearing. I just know I couldn't use the sir or ma'am thing like I normally use with strangers regardless of their age in relation to mine.

 

Equal rights to what, exactly?

If we went by the traditional Conservative Libertarian view of "equal rights", almost none of this would be a problem.

(The only exception I can see are public bathrooms, and the military forces)

 

Complete and utter NONSENSE!

How is it a "lie" to refer to be a Trans person by THEIR self identified gender?

How does doing that ALTER reality?

Human RIGHTS are UNIVERSAL to ALL humans irrespective of nationality.

Great!

In case you missed it I did NOT rely to the OP!

I responded to the ENTIRE thread up to that point so as to ADDRESS all of the misconceptions that had been posted in the thread.

 

Science has determined that you can have a FEMALE brain in a MALE body which means that their DNA and BIOLOGY are determining their GENDER as TRANS rather than male of female.

 

That is the IDENTICAL fallacy that was used AGAINST gays having the RIGHT to marry.

 

That is ANOTHER of the FALLACIES that was used AGAINST gays having the RIGHT to marry.

Society does NOT have any right to IMPOSE their misbegotten BELIEFS about gender on others.

Trans are NOT "demanding" anything at all.

They have a RIGHT to have their self identity RESPECTED by society,

In essence you are making this about YOUR own inability to ACCEPT that there are others who do not CONFORM to YOUR mistaken BELIEFS.

Their REALITY does NOT get OVERRIDEN by your BELIEFS about them.

You need to accept that your beliefs about them are INCORRECT. Once you come to that realization then you will appreciate that all they want is to be is treated as the person that they present themselves as to society.

 

I agree, with the exception of prisons, the military forces, and public bathrooms.

Anyway, ironically it seems the progressives who support this stuff are the ones trying to "impose their beliefs about gender onto others".

 

That's a laugh.

Can you please define what you mean by "respected" here a little more clearly?

You mean society respects their right to self-identify, or society has to respect what they self-identify as?

Because those are two very different things.