The Shroud of Turin...what do you think about it?

WHAT is evidence? The claim of an unwitnessed miracle imprinting a shroud said to have happened 2000 years ago?

 

Yes, the results were witnessed by dozens, then hundreds, and then thousands. Your arrogance is that you believe that you can define what is and isn't evidence and the rest of the world has to accept your definition...we don't. Some of us recognize there is more to the knowable world than is limited by what can be seen and measured.

 

No. Not only do I have serious doubts that an individual named "Jesus Christ" ever existed, though that's pretty irrelevant, the shroud has been carbon dated to the 13th Century (specifically, 1260-1390 AD, with a 95% confidence), so it could not be what those who want it to be real are hoping for. Sorry.

Don't feel bad, I remember hoping it was real back in my childhood when I believed in religion, because it would serve to assuage my doubts about the whole christianity thing. But I have long since realized that christianity is a fraud created by those in control to ensure they stayed in control, and the very foundations of the faith, like a talking snake, a 6,000 year old earth (and homo sapiens), and a global flood that literally could not happen are completely stupid.

And when I learned that the very contents of the buybull were decided by a group of men voting on what should stay and what should go, I realized I was right about it being a fraud.

Then, of course, I died. Visited the "other side" and everything. It is not what xtianity tells people to expect.

You're right, it is impressive. But that doesn't change the fact that it is a fraud, probably created for the very purpose of assuaging people's doubts about the religion, and creating new converts.

People are not flocking TO the catholic church, if anything they're fleeing it or just dying off. I don't necessarily disagree that there is something of an awakening happening, as happened to me, but it's not towards xtianity or catholicism, it's more like, well, my sort of spirituality. Something of a hybrid mix of Hinduism and Buddhism, though even that wouldn't be entirely correct, either.

But as to the shroud, it's a fraud, and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Congrats!

 

No, I don't define what "evidence" means. There are solid definitions of that.

But, you are proposing that "evidence" includes stuff that has not been seen or measured, and for which there is no possibility without a "miracle".

Look, Christianity doesn't depend on the shroud of Turin.

 

Well, well. Anything that disagrees with your buybull is simply discounted and ignored. That's why your religion is a cult.

 

He's just playing the roll of dumb troll. Like this guy:

 

Medieval hoax. Christians have been suckers for hoaxes for 2,000 years and counting.

 

RE: The Shroud of Turin...what do you think about it?
SUBTOPIC: Does the Unknown Exists?
⁜→ DentalFloss, Dennis Tate, et al,

PREFACE: There are two aspects that need to be remembered in discussing (scientific) "evidence:" ••

◈ First: Scientific Evidence is assembled under the generalized process known as the "scientific method." It is a process by which the outcome from the discovery of certain facts leads us to believe whether or not the hypothesis is both sound and valid.

◈ Second: The outcome of a scientific method used must be independently reproducible and withstand scrutiny in the form of systematically recorded tests, measurements, and experiments.

(SHORT ANSWER)

Could the Shroud of Turin be what it claims to represent? Yes, it is possible.

(COMMENT)

Anytime a scientific investigation tries to examine something of a potentially supernatural nature, the inquiry has stepped into the realm of the Metaphysical. Are the scientific methods of value and importance? Yes, they are...

And as far as the Radiocarbon dating, there is enough information available that indicates that the method and outcome are questionable. The specific questions have been relative to the various contaminations, but the Radiocarbon dating method does not have a countermeasure when the material itself is contaminated by a separate and distinct high energy source. Remember, radiocarbon dating tests used to examine the Shroud used methods that are now more than 30 years behind the time. And in that time scientists have still not been able to explain how the negative image was formed on the shroud - other than to say they imagine it was from a high energy wavelength shifting burst of a nature that is not reproducible even today, let alone a millennium ago when the radiocarbon dating suggests the shroud dates back to. This was a time many centuries before Madame Curie's famous discoveries.

Science has a very poor track record in such matters in explaining the unknown qualities and characteristics of the supernatural.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

Yeah, by people just like you.

And you're right, Christianity does not depend on the shroud of Turin.

 

It shouldn't, people have a tendency to worship icons and relics, rather than the Creator.

 

Information is wieghed by the Bible view, it is not simply discounted and ignored. ironic , shouldn't you think, you simply discount views made from a Christian View.. and I think the man in your avatar would disagree with your post.

 

Is a family a cult? Two and a half billion Christians is a pretty big cult. Or are you referring to Jesus Christ alone as a cult leader? Have you considered that it is you who has left God right out of the chute for the cult of the world?

 

That's because most stuff from the buybull is made up out of thin air, with no sort of analysis or measuring metrics offered. "Believe or else" is the message. Not to mention you guys think disease exists as a punishment from gawwddd, when it's actually just bacterial and/or viral infections. You also believe in floods that not only didn't happen, but couldn't under any circumstances, a timeline of humanity that is wrong by at least 15x, and probably more, and I'm sorry to tell you, but modern genetics says beyond any doubt, that we are not all descended from a single couple. The four biographies of JC were written a century after his death, at a time where the lack of technology or even something as simple (to us) as a printing press makes it a 100 year game of "Telephone", so even assuming JC actually existed, and was one single person instead of an amalgamation of several people who lived about the same time means the accuracy is very low, especially as regards direct word for word quotes.

A group of regular old humans voted on what books, or chapters if you prefer, was to be included, meaning they likely accepted some that were absolute hogwash, and perhaps rejected others that had some grains of truth in them. And then you add translate, retranslate, retranslate, rewrite, edit, delete, add, and you end up with hundreds of different versions all of which are different, despite the fact that allegedly they were written by gawd himself. Seems were that the case, there would be ONE version, with no inconsistencies, and it would not have needed to be assembled by a Legislature of sorts with all sorts of competing agendas.

Xtianity is not a singular thing, as it is made up of dozens, perhaps hundreds of sub-groups (like Roman Catholics, Methodists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Southern Baptists, etc., etc. And they are all cults, perhaps with sub-cults under them.

 

all of this is absolutely false, and much of the Bible can be verified.... so no no no no no , etc to your contentions. With some honest research, you can find this out... you would be amazed at just how supernatural the Bible is.

 

The Shroud?
The Savoy family brought it to Turin [not far from where I live].

At first sight you could put the Shroud in the category of the pieces of the True Cross [there are so many pieces of that cross around that it had to be enormous!!!].

But there is a difference: the Shroud is unique.
As a good Protestant I'm not impressed by miracles because of their divine nature.
They can be miracles or not. But ... even if it's a natural process ... it happened only one time.

We are free to think what we want [G-d/God created us free, let's remind this], but something happened.
[A note: I use "G-d" as a way to show respect].

So, historically we cannot obtain information before of late middle ages about the Shroud.
Scientifically we can do something more, but the fragments which had analyzed are matter of debate: they weren't "pure".
A later contamination could have affected the results.

As a person connected with a well ancient religious Knight Order [the present Order of Malta existed with an other name when the Shroud was still to arrive at Turin], probably I could be considered in some way biased about the Shroud.

But I do suggest you to make some historical researches about that "piece".

 

Dude... I died. My heart stopped, I had no brain activity, and my organs were shutting down, or my organs might have been shutting down first, the timeline is not clear to me.

But, I had a short visit to "the other side", and I can tell you I spent most of my time there talking to someone... I never saw a person, and I'm not even sure if I heard a voice or of it was some sort of telepathy, but we spoke about the idea of reincarnation, probably because that is a subject that absolutely fascinates me. I didn't get all the details, but I was, I think, shown glimpses of some of my own past lives, and had it confirmed to me that reincarnation is absolutely real, and I think the reason was explained but that part is very, very fuzzy.

But there was no JC there, there was no judgement for my "sins" (which by your "holee books" standards, many and many), nothing like that. It was just some entity that I never saw who was there to welcome me, not judge me at all, and answer all my questions, which as I said, centered around the phenomenon of reincarnation.

So, I have come to the conclusion that the spiritual lessons you guys teach are simply wrong. I'm sorry to inform you of that, and I'm quite sure you'll come up with some excuse to try to explain away my personal experience as a monkey f-ing a football or something along those lines, but it's very real. If you look into it, you'll find tens of thousands of stories from people just like me, who for one reason or another also died and were brought back, most of whom have stories like mine to tell. It seems that the idea of eternal torture for being gay, or a non-believer, or sexually promiscuous, or even a violent criminal is a falsehood, which to me is a good thing.

Because if the Source of all there is is the violent psychopath as described in the buybull, I frankly want nothing to do with him, her, or it.

 

Glad you are alive.. can't analyze your near death experience tho' , could as easily been nerves and synapses, or it could have been a construct by demons.

The "violent psychopath" , is My Lord. and you understand nothing about the Bible.. you can't even refer to the Bible properly..

So I've stated my beliefs, built on faith and study. I do not like the way you speak of it. I see no chance of you having an epiphany, and for all I know, you picked up a demon in your near death state; so here I will part from this conversation.

 

If that were really true, there would be no need for nor value in physical relics of highly unlikely authenticity. Indeed, the genuine believers are such despite knowing this kind of physical evidence would be contrary to the very spirit and meaning of Jesus. What is of ultimate importance, if any "thing", is the immaterial.

 

The trouble with these kinds of experiences is that, by definition, they take place in a severely altered state. They really cannot be related to from the point of view of an outside observer as anything other than a hallucination. As much as one may attach reality to them, honesty commands skepticism, even on the part of the person "experiencing", such things.

 

Understood. If Parents head a family. And the children revere the Parents. Is it a cult? Is the origin of Christianity sinister in your opinion. Or is what was done to it, sinister, in the torture and death of its leader and members? In other words, which one was the cult, Christianity or the status quo in its brutal treatment of them. In America, one isn't put to death for his/her religious beliefs.

 

Yes...reincarnation is termed The Gilgul Cycle in Judaism....and many
near death experiencers are shown specifics about how reincarnation works to humble us.... and assist to have greater empathy for all others.


http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/index.html

....

There is considerable evidence that indicates that the Apostollc Church believed in reincarnation for two or three centuries after the time of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.




Why reincarnation was edited out of Christianity?

Your nomination for Nobel Prize in Literature?

Those last ten paragraphs are Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus teaching His disciples the hidden truths.... as seen by near death experiencer Bruce F. MacDonald.

 

Construct of demons! Or a monkey f-ing a football! The demon answer was my mom's favorite response, too, when she had nothing logical to say, and as I predicted, you went down the same path. Once again, if that's what it was, and if you get tortured for all of eternity by being "tricked" be demons, any deity that would allow such a thing is a psychopath who likes punishing people for all of eternity, which compared to a 70 or 80 year lifetime, is a long, long time, and not even us violent humans, for the most part anyway, punish criminals by torturing them, because we've realized (after many centuries of maturing) that it's just inhumane.

If a deity can't figure that out, that's one cruel deity.

My description is accurate though, because anyone who buys the horseshit contained within, with your talking snakes, floods that are physically impossible to have happened (not to mention did not kill other societies that existed at the time) is buying the BS within. If you were to give a copy of the buybull to a 20 year old adult who had zero familiarity with it, by the time he (or she) was done with however far they could stand getting through, they'd swear it was a comedy, and a poorly written one at that. For 99.9% of people, the only reason they believe it is because their parents pounded it into their heads from the time they could speak, which I consider to be child abuse, frankly.

To a child that young, their parents ARE "gods", and whatever they say, no matter how crazy it might sound, is the absolute and undeniable truth. But it's just brainwashing.

Good! Perhaps your dislike of the way I speak of it will cause you to lose at least a little of the blind faith, as that is not a good way to judge things or make decisions. Rather, you should trust that part of you that is wondering if all the crazy sounding stuff could possibly be right, and look into it. Because you believe in a flood that literally could not have happened, and according to testimonies of other cultures, like Egypt and China, that existed at the time and suffered no flood, your blind faith may well be misplaced.

Run away, run away. If you can't handle and don't like what you're hearing, because a little voice in the back of your head is starting to wonder if it just might be right, solve it by running away and pretending it never happened.

 

I'm not going to parse every quote you posted, nor go point by point in the totality of your post, but I'll tell you a few things.

First, whether you know it or not, and why would you, I've been watching many of your posts (at least the ones that I was aware of) for some time now, and I like a lot of what you have to say, with two HUGE issues.

First, you seem to be tied to christianity, and can't let it go, so you look at these events, the thousands upon thousands of NDE reports and reporters, and the things that are in direct contradiction to christianity, like reincarnation itself, many of which, if you went to a christian church and started sharing your ideas would get you tossed out ass over teakettle. You try to shove all this stuff under the christianity tent, which can't be done because literally ALL christian churches teach the exact opposite, and some of the more brainwashed membership might even accuse you of being a demon, as just recently happened to me.

I have my doubts that JC existed as taught by christian churches, but even if he did I think it was more likely like someone else posted earlier in this thread... a 5th dimensional being incarnated into a world full of mostly 3rd dimensional ones, and to "him", or however our spiritual selves may be described, I think the idea that we're worshiping him 2 centuries later (though that is starting to fade) would horrify him. That would not have been his purpose or intent. Which may be why 5th dimensional entities don't incarnate in 3rd dimensional worlds.

So I think you might want to examine your desire to shove your knowledge and ideas into a christianty tent to see if that's actually the best thing to be endorsing. Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you have to say and many of your ideas, but I can't help but wonder if you're trying to fit a more generic spiritualist square peg into a christian round hole.

Second, you speak of "god" as if he(?) was a completely separate entity, some sort of unelected President of everything that is, but I do not. I see source as fundamental, but "all" source is is pure, partially refined consciousness. The "partially refined" part is why it has subdivided itself into us... the trillions to the trillions power number of conscious physical entities that cross trillions of planets in this galaxy as plants, trees, bees, humans or some other "intelligent" species, and out into the trillions of other planets across the trillions of other galaxies in this universe, and across the trillions and trillions and trillions of other entire universes, where even the laws of physics may be quite different.

I have studied many aspects of quantum physics, even wrote a whitepaper about it, that I'm fairly (well, more than that) convinced that our very reality is actually more like a digital simulation (yes, not completely unlike the Matrix) that those of us who are here, and here now, are collectively experiencing. Wave/particle duality as evidenced in the double slit experiment, quantum tunneling, the fact that light doesn't travel through space, rather it teleports at the Planck Time level thus creating, or at least emulating a frame rate (though one that is trillions of times faster than ever our fastest computer games. simulations, or even important stuff like the software running the LHC), all of which (and more) strongly implies that our reality is yes, simulated, but in a metaphorical sense, but more to the point, it is calculated. Which is of course what physics is all about. Matter doesn't even exist, which we learn so poignantly from the DS experiment, but not a whole lot of people realize that.

Of course, such a "physical" (which it really isn't) environment requires a creator of some sort, but that's where we close the circle back to the Source. In it's own evolution, it realized it needed to mature, so it figured out how to make these realities, and split itself into all of us, so we can come here and to many, many other places and "learn lessons" of many kinds. Including sometimes being the raped, and sometimes being the rapist. But those concepts may not even exist in other places in this universe, or others. But Source and "god" are not the same thing, and Source doesn't exist separately from us, it is us, and we are it. Of course, saying we are "god" will also get you tossed out of most churches before you can even pass go and collect $200. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some participant in this thread reads those words and takes major offense to it, and let's me hear about it.

Anyway, I have, as usual, blabbered on way too long, and covered way more material than I intended to, but it's some thoughts I wanted to point out to you and give you the opportunity to chew on, and do with as you like.

 

It's interesting how so many in this forum believe science is killing religion, and particularly killing Christianity. Christianity is not a dying 'cult'. It is, in fact, growing globally. God is not dead and science will not kill Him.

 

RE: The Shroud of Turin...what do you think about it?
SUBTOPIC: Does the Unknown Exists?
⁜→ swan, et al,

Yessss. It is not within the realm of man (currently) to mentally envision or explain anything beyond the "fourth dimension." There are no true judgments (scientifically) that are accumulated "in favor of → or → opposing" the relative nature of the supernatural (the Supreme Being, lesser deities, angelic or demonic entities, apparitions, and or the illumination of powers beyond this plane of existence - or the darkness from a plane of depravity) none of these extraordinary examples are substantiated as real, and more than that of a jar of lightning can be pulled from the shelf or a tabernacle. And while certain religious ceremonies religiously perform ritual alchemy,

(COMMENT)

A non-fictional supernatural immortal (ie God) cannot die, by definition (not through a scientific or medical) explanation because a human does not set the conditions for such an entity to face such a possibility. If such a possibility can be experienced by such an entity (ie death), then it is no more a "supernatural immortal" entity than you or I.

I say this, not to be a pain in the discussion, but so that others in the discussion, can recognize the relationship between the Supreme Being (the Creator of the Universe) and science, which is an outcome of the nature and actions by which the Supreme Beings (if it is all-powerful) created the universe. Science cannot endanger a Supreme Being, but the Supreme Being may (at its will) alter the natural laws upon which science is based. And I think the lack of understanding of these tenants. I do not think science has done a very good job of establishing the difference.


Most Respectfully,
R