5 things that you should worship instead of religion

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by ALFORCE, Sep 14, 2017.

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  1. ALFORCE

    ALFORCE Member

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    [​IMG]

    To keep energy up


    [​IMG]
    Video games to fight depression and anxiety


    [​IMG]
    To enrich knowledge


    [​IMG]
    Academic Career or a satisfying career


    [​IMG]
    The picture speaks for itself
     
  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I'm having a problem wrapping my head around this. It seems like a joke, but the idea you seem to want to promote seems to be the butt of the joke.

    On one hand, it seems to be a jab at religion, but suggesting options like worshipping coffee seems to me to highlight the meaninglessness of the alternatives to religion, which surely is a point in religions' favour?
     
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  3. ALFORCE

    ALFORCE Member

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    That depends on what kind of meaning you are referring to.

    Spiritual meaning - can be attachment to something, meaningful thing or event or religion.

    Biological meaning - the purpose of survival and reproduction.

    Hedonistic meaning - feeling of meaningfulness when you satisfy your needs such as the need for shelter, food, drink, safety and other important things like sex.
     
  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Well, if this is really an argument why people should worship them, as the title suggests, then I would imagine it would have to be either what you call spiritual meaning or something tantamount to it. I would probably have chosen another name for it, but whatever (even people who reject spiritualism can have meaning).

    I've never heard of the pleasure of indulging in one's need in accordance with hedonism as "hedonistic meaning" and neither that nor biological meaning is usually what people talk about when it comes to the meaning of life. That's not to say one can't consider food or shelter a "spiritual meaning" too, it's just not very common. Certainly, religious people as well as many (most?) non-religious people like myself would consider "hedonistic meaning" a step down. There are even non-religious meanings which don't rely on hedonism.
     
  5. ChrisL

    ChrisL Well-Known Member

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    I don't really feel a need to worship anything, TBH. Why do some humans have a need to worship something? Interesting, don't you think?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  6. ALFORCE

    ALFORCE Member

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    Well, if you consider it a step down, think again.

    Lets take two people. One person has been orthodox Jew all his life, Lets call him SpongeBob. The other one is an atheist.
    Lets say that the Jew is framed and goes to jail for life (basically, he is never going to come out of jail).
    The atheist guy is Hugh Hefner (the founder of playboy) rich and surrounded by women.
    Who is going to have more life meaning, Hugh or SpongeBob?
    SpongeBob is going to have less meaning. SpongeBob will feel inside of him worthlessness in continuing to live.
    Whereas, every one of Hughes days is valuable, because he gets what he wants. A day in his life is felt as being valuable, or at least more valuable than SpongBob's day in prison, where is surrounded by NeoNazi/Mexican/Black gangs, and locked most of the time in supermax security prison for his own protection.
    [​IMG]
    Every philosophy has weaknesses in it. No matter how strong the mental fortress that you build, a small crack can lead to a whole and to intrusion of thoughts that would lead to anxiety and depression.
    So why not to enjoy yourself, take the middle of the road approach, and try to satisfy all the meanings of life?

    There is another meaning that I didnt mention. That is called 'Collective' meaning. That is when your life is meaningful simply because of someone else such as your sick dying mother, children or the community you are in.
     
  7. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I'm guessing you have never lived a life like that you ascribe to Hugh Hefner. They don't tend to describe their lives as particularly full of meaning. Who is it who complains about life's meaninglessness? And who take their lives for that reason? It tends to be people who "have it all", who easily satisfies their mundane needs. Of course, prison also sees a lot of suicides, but not for the same reasons.

    Many see meaning in obtaining the things you talk about, but once you have it, one tends not to see much meaning in it any more. Still nice, but not fulfilling. I can't say that I have all possible hedonistic needs seen to, but I don't pretend that winning the rat race is going to be my path to meaning. Not that I know what my path to meaning will be, I just think it's premature to replace the meaning that people find in religion with the meaning you might find in coffee.
     
  8. ALFORCE

    ALFORCE Member

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    Why do you focus on pursuing meaning so much in the first place?
    There is no meaning in any of us being here. We were all evolved from animals, and here by accident.

    Lets say, the bible is true. It would be meaningless to follow it. Because a person like me would defy God and his rules, same as I would defy the authorities legitimacy if it I needed to and knew I wouldnt be caught. Why should I obey, and refuse a comfortable or desirable life, or why I should recognize him as an authority. That would leave people like me with no meaning.

    Second point that I want to mention, is the language you use. You use the verb 'see' and I use the verb 'feel'. You cant determine your psychology by saying you feel meaningfulness. You can see meaningfulness. But feeling it can be a completely different thing.
     
  9. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Please use the quote function when you answer, so I get a notification.
    Well, it's one of the reasons is that people cling to religion, indeed one of the reasons they worship their respective gods (which is what you reject). Why are you talking about worshipping coffee instead of just having it?
    Many argue that God does provide a meaning to such a life (which is similar to the collective meaning you refer to, but also includes cosmic, spiritual and sometimes hedonistic meaning too).

    To some extent, this is answered by hell, in its various interpretations. It is not hedonistic to do what puts you in hell, right?
    Well, the way I think about it, you can see meaning, and you can pursue meaning, and when you have pursued meaning successfully, you feel it.

    The arguments I have talked about are about finding meaning, not pursuing it once you have found it. A person might see meaning in worshipping God but not do it. My arguments pertain to the identifying of meaning, so I use the word see.
     
  10. ALFORCE

    ALFORCE Member

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    But I see no meaning in worshiping God and I wouldnt feel meaningfulness even if the Judo-Christian God existed..
    It would simply be another authority above the state authority, nothing more nothing less. By saying nothing more and nothing less, I mean no redemption, no new moral order and no new feeling of purpose.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. perdidochas

    perdidochas Greeter Staff Member

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    I think this is about the most vapid argument I've seen in a while.
     
  12. perdidochas

    perdidochas Greeter Staff Member

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    Nice SpongeBob strawman you built there. Is that all you got? From what I've read Hefner had a pretty miserable existence.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  13. ALFORCE

    ALFORCE Member

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    Have you got something meaningful to add or just to pick holes?

    [​IMG]

    By the way, I was joking about the worshiping pictures. That is part from the last picture.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  14. perdidochas

    perdidochas Greeter Staff Member

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    Well, my post was as meaningful as your OP. That was exactly my point. Your OP was essentially content-less. yes, you posted some pictures, but you made no real argument.
     
  15. ALFORCE

    ALFORCE Member

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    Hmm, but you see, there is the other side to the coin. I am arguing against something that isnt supported by literally any 'real' argument. It is as if I am trying to prove that ghosts and tooth fairies dont exist. Do you want me to go and find some research that God doesnt exist?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  16. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Well, others do. Many of those who you adress in the title to this thread do. I would agree with you, but to assume that therefore, everyone else agrees to would be premature. If God's design includes us having a purpose (and that purpose being a part of the purpose of the universe) it's not hard to see how meaning can come from that.

    Either way, it was left out of the argument you made in your OP.

    You can ease up on the images, they kind of make a mess out of my browser and the outline of the post. Attaching a picture to your argument doesn't really do anything but make it look like you're just regurgitating arguments without thinking. It also makes it hard to follow the logic and point out which bit one wants to comment on. Plain text is perfectly reasonable.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  17. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The worship of the infinitely ancient Ancient of Days the FAther and the Ancient of Days the Mother (The Holy Spirit) as the first scientists and inventors..... of all of the creations in post #1...... is perhaps an improvement over viewing G-d as a Theologian first..... and a Scientist and Inventor...... much later on.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...begin-in-matter-or-fundamental-energy.465052/

    Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?

    Worshipable phenomena number 5 links to:
    http://carbonbias.blogspot.ca/


    http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/gender/g1.htm
     
  18. ALFORCE

    ALFORCE Member

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    You may believe in what you want. But you can't deny the truth that we have been experiencing. Always remember in what world we found ourselves 6,000 years ago. Everything was scarce food, shelter, safety in addition to all the disease and plagues that wiped out big chunks of populations.

    My view on that is that if the world was to be designed for your purpose, it wouldnt have all that. There would in fact also not be predators and favorable cosmological environment (no threat of the sun frying us in the future and then extinguishing itself, space stretching us, asteroid hitting earth and other cosmic disasters that are going to happen in the future).

    I must add a funny pic,
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I find this to be a completely different argument to the one I was addressing. I am already non-religious, so there is no point in presenting new arguments to me. I'm just interested in making the arguments clear and consistent. Well, to be fair, at this point, all I'm saying is that you're playing into the hands of popular arguments of theirs, even if you and I agree those arguments are flawed.
    Ok, I will delete it.
     

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