9/11 Truthers are the most treasonous people in America, here's why.

Discussion in '9/11' started by SiliconMagician, Sep 6, 2011.

  1. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    BullsLawDan also argued that certain particular individuals were proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" of their involvement in a crime during somebody ELSE'S trial.

    One doesn't need to have passed their bar exam to know that you can't be proven guilty except in your OWN trial.
     
  2. BullsLawDan

    BullsLawDan New Member

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    Well apparently one does need to be smarter than you to know that, to prove someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt means proving every single element of the crime to that standard, including, in this case, that the convicted person conspired with other people.
     
  3. krusewalker

    krusewalker Banned

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    in that case, i wish i were american, as i would be happy to be the traitor you define it to be.

    as regards the consequences you list - you present them as if they are a bad thing :mrgreen:
     
  4. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    No doubt now, I assume your vocation has nothing to do whatsoever with law.

    A link to conspiring with THESE PARTICULAR individuals was never established in this trial.. This is why you fail to show any findings or conclusions from the trial, any exhibits from the publically available list of the prosecution's evidence, or any mentions of these particular OTHER individuals being in on the crime as well from the transcript.

    Proving that somebody worked with another person is not the same thing as proving they worked with a particular individual that you arbitrarily declare.. If Al and Bob are proven to have worked together on a crime, I can't just say that this means George W. Bush was in on the same crime as proved by that trial.. Al HAD to be working with "somebody else" to be found guilty of "conspiracy" therefore who that "somebody else" is will be anybody I have the whim to declare, designated arbitrarily by me. .. In this case, ZM can be proven in on the conspiracy due to his associations with someone ELSE e.g. Mohammed Atta. someone OTHER than the one you claim is "proven guilty".

    In this case however this didn't even happen.. The trial ended BEFORE the evidence could be vetted and such link established, because ZM just plead guilty..Establishing a conspiracy with ANY others then becomes irrelevant. The only decision the jury had to make was the recommended sentence.

    Therefore, the claims that the court determined beyond a reasonable doubt that KSM was in on this conspiracy is entirely nonsense.

    I would like to think legal professionals understand the basic tenets of the law they practice, that is innocent until proven guilty, and the right to defend yourself against allegations in court.. They understand that evidence must be vetted as pertinent to the DEFENDENT, not non-parties to the trial, and that such defendent then has the right to legal council, to challenge the evidence, to cross examine witnesses etc.

    You can't physically prove someone guilty if they had no representation in trial.

    This is why KSM and crew sit there untried and collecting dust nearly a decade with a grand total of ZERO convictions entered against them.

    If you want to one day get into law school, you're going to need to hit the books.
     
  5. BullsLawDan

    BullsLawDan New Member

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    LOL. You're funny. What do you need, firm letterhead?
    Of course it was. I already demonstrated this.

    Of course, what I don't even need to refer to, but that is important, is that KSM and the other co-conspirators facing the military tribunals in Guantanamo attempted to plead guilty to all charges at the end of 2008. But you ignore that, because, like all 9/11 Deniers, you ignore anything that doesn't affirm your preordained delusion.
    Who ever said that KSM or anyone else was "proven guilty"? I said, correctly, that, as a necessary element of ZM's conviction was proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he conspired with KSM and the others.

    Your lack of any legal training, I suspect, is preventing you from comprehending the nuances.
    As I said, their tribunals started in Guantanamo, before the decision to use civilian federal trials. There was probable cause to get to the evidentiary portion of their tribunals.
    I have been to law school. That's why I understand the difference between a conviction and proving a fact as a necessary element of a crime.

    But why would I expect any different? Unfounded personal attacks are the hallmark of the cult of 9/11 denial.
     
  6. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    No, I don't need any letterhead. What I need is some evidence for your claims.

    You have not.. You have not shown a shred of anything from that trial that links to THOSE particular individuals; you merely just redundantly assert that such link was established there. I've asked you a few times now and each time you've failed to produce.

    No guilty plea was entered.. It counts for nothing.

    You see the judge, who IS a legal proffessional, vetts these things to make sure these defendents are mentally competent and that such plea of guilty is genuine.. In this case the judge was not convinced, and he ordered mental competency hearings to determine if they were mentally competent to make such a big decision.

    This trial was promptly disbanded and terminated BEFORE these hearings could take place.

    The fact remains that he was, among much other bad treatment, sleep deprived for a very long time, and this tends to make people go nuts...

    He can attempt to plead guilty for any number of reasons, perhaps fear for his family whom, last he might have known of were in the custody of and threatened by his mortal enemy, maybe doesn't like a life of solitary confinement and torture so wants to die a martyr, or maybe he's gone permentantly insane from the CIA torture and phsycological manipulation program, and is just rambling delusionally without really knowing what he's saying.

    Nobody said "proven guilty", but you're claiming he's proven to be involved.

    However:
    I simply told you, I'll believe your story as told in the 9/11 commission report as soon as they CONVICT those people they claim are responsible and prove them guilty.

    Your response should have been, "yeah that is crazy that they've not gotten around to convicting these guys, I should write to my government so I can get justice served and prove to the 9/11 deniers that our story is true."

    INSTEAD you brought up the trial of ZM! If you mean that proving that KSM was involved in and behind 9/11 beyond a reasonable doubt, like you have said, isn't the same thing as proving him "guilty" or convicting him, then why are you bringing THIS up in response to why they have not yet proven HIM guilty and convicted HIM?

    There are NO federal trials for these individuals, nor will there EVER be. This fact has been apparent since 2009. Military commission hearings have NOT been reopened.

    So how do you think you're refuting the idea that these alleged masterminds are sitting there collecting dust and NOT being tried? This is a FACT that they are not being tried.

    WHY they are not being tried SHOULD concern you if you are a legal proffessional.

    The tribunal's over.. It's been over for years. Still no conviction entered.

    That case crashed and burned, you can't exactly bring it up to have proven anything other than a failure of prosecution.

    You've never proven that the ZM trial proved THAT fact. You've just claimed it over and over again.

    What specific exhibits, statements, records etc. from the ZM trial can you show me that proves THIS fact?

    You decide yourself what to expect so you'd never expect something different than your mind anticipates.

    Now since you claim I am a "9/11 denier", what fact(s) am I denying here? I'm simply asking for your evidence first.. Certainly I have a right to wait to see if you have evidence for your claim before I get condemned for not accepting such claim.
     
  7. psikeyhackr

    psikeyhackr Well-Known Member

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    So why can't the nation that put men on the Moon 42 years ago and completed the Empire State Building 80 years ago tell the entire world the tons of steel and tons of concrete that were on each and every level of the towers?

    Of course after TEN YEARS we have to wonder why the physics profession has not been demanding that information.

    It would really be terrible if the data made it obvious that the physicists should have figured out in 2002 that there is no way airliners could have done that much destruction that quickly.

    psik
     
  8. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    Well whether you want to believe it or not, it happened. Despite all the "laws of physics" in your mind that say it's impossible.. 2 airliners hijacked by Muslim terrorists managed to bring down the World Trade Center Towers. That is the only truth that matters.

    To spread anything else than that does actual physical damage to the United States of America (which is why terrorists spread it) and insults the intelligence of millions and millions of Americans who either experienced the terror in person, or watched it on Live TV as it happened.

    This is one of the best videos of the South tower attack I have ever seen and it shows clearly that these planes tore the guts right out of these buildings as you can see the pieces of steel flying out and striking and bouncing off of other nearby buildings. Those planes were the cause of the collapse. Not Bush Bombs. After watching that video there is no way I can believe that those buildings could've survived such an assault. I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp2vO1FnQHM"]WTC 9/11 Rare Footage...Insane Sound! - YouTube[/ame]
     
  9. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    I've already shot down this thread.. Why did you bump it? To remind everyone that you have completely failed to support your main premise, and cite any "actual physical damage" caused to the US proving it was caused by "9/11 truth"?

    You've not got proof, your thread's a dud, so stop repeating the same baseless crap.
     
  10. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    Ummm...3.
    Let's not forget the command and control center.
     
  11. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  12. LoneStrSt8

    LoneStrSt8 New Member Past Donor

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  13. creativedreams

    creativedreams New Member

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    66% on the planet? Not surprised one bit.....looks like most of the planet has a higher I.Q. than you...
     
  14. creativedreams

    creativedreams New Member

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    Did you know that before 9/11 the department of counterterrorism test flighted Boeing passenger planes with remote flying and no pilot?

    Did you know that before 9/11 the department of counterterrorism had an office in World Trade Center Building #7 on the 23rd floor where they spent many millions only on that floor reinforcing that floors walls, windows, etc making it literally a treefort or some type of sky bunker within the World Trade Center complexes?

    I could go on and on with specific and verifiable facts that show you a picture of what was more likely what happened but I wouldn't want to shatter your fragile mindset....
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal New Member

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    Did you know that just saying something is true does not necessarily make it so?
     
  16. creativedreams

    creativedreams New Member

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    Those are indisputable facts... but don't let facts penetrate your shield of denial or whatever comfort zone you are in....I don't blame you....just live a happy life oblivious of the harsh facts around you and it would be much simpler and a zone of ignorant bliss....let the intellects see what really is going on....
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal New Member

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    Cite your sources for these 'indisputable facts'.
    You can leave out the insults, they are useless.
     
  18. creativedreams

    creativedreams New Member

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    Sorry for being insulting...I will come back with the sources when I have more time...I have posted them before but will have to dig and post them again here
     
  19. SpotsCat

    SpotsCat New Member Past Donor

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    From Wikipedia --

    Roger Cohen writing in the New York Times says, "What we are dealing with here is the paltry harvest of captive minds. Such minds resort to conspiracy theory because it is the ultimate refuge of the powerless. If you cannot change your own life, it must be that some greater force controls the world."

    The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy. Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a (*)(*)(*)(*) whether you live or die. There, you feel better now?" - Dennis Miller
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal New Member

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    Like here?

    Opinion and speculation, but no facts or sources?
     
  21. kshRox01

    kshRox01 Banned

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    non-sequitor . . .

    If the truthers are right it does not matter that it undermines our government, our current government should be undermined.

    If they are wrong, it does not hurt to Question Authority . . .
     
  22. creativedreams

    creativedreams New Member

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    It used to be the government was there for the people and the people elected exactly who and what they wanted in government...now it is non transparent and you do not chose who your options to vote for are...the corporate political parties in control control who we vote for....the corporate media snuffs out anyone outside the two parties corporations control.....
     
  23. Hannibal

    Hannibal New Member

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    Which has what to do with 'truthers', or the topic of your 'remote controlled planes'?
     
  24. Nomen

    Nomen New Member

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    yes..

    and hey, america is already undermined, by stuff like using 9/11 to attack iraq, or, you know, just killing bin laden and dropping him in the sea. the mastermind of the biggest attack on america, used to be target #1, then got degraded to "no priority", then simply got swept under the rug and nobody even cared haha. that was nearly as hilarious as that whole melting steel business.

    and guess what, the way to get back from that is not pulling more of it. calling people who raise valid questions traitors reeks of the nazis and nothing else.
     
  25. Unifier

    Unifier New Member

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    Higher I.Q. or lower I.Q.?

    I've never seen such an absurd case of mass delusion on such a grand scale. You people will believe anything if it matches your predetermined confirmation bias. You already hate America, so anything that anyone says that makes America look bad, you will eat up like starving Ethiopians without even questioning it. Because it gives you a smug sense of satisfaction.

    You guys are so gullible.
     

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