An American asks: Nationalist movements in Europe?

I don't travel much to Europe. My question to you all is how is the various nationalist movement doing in Europe? Are they a major force that can gain power? If so, are these nationalist political movement Fascist? Or just very Nationalist.

 

Based on history, Europe bears close monitoring because, after all, they are responsible for decades of war and millions of lost lives due to their warring nature.

 

Their has been a resurgance of nationalist movements in europe. Most are quiet marginal but with many european countries operating in multiparty parlimentary systems. Even small movements can hold the balance of power.

Many are quasi fascist some have softened the tone some are simply anti eu or xenophobic.

 

Fixed it for you. You're welcome.

 

Sweden
Somewhere between 5 to 15 percent of the population in Sweden in concerned enough about the high levels of immigration to vote for the Sweden Democrats, even though the Party is regarded by half the population as being like the nazis. All of the other swedish political parties are conspiring together to shut the Sweden Democrats out of any coalition, effectively denying them any influence in drafting policies. The Swedish media is trying to do all it can to suppress the rise of Nationalism in the country, and the Social Democratic Party (which is dominant in the Parliament) has drafted laws, and implemented policies aimed at silencing any ethnic resentment or criticism against its immigration policies. There have been many allegations that the government and local police forces have been limiting free speech, using laws against "inciting ethnic hatred" and claims over public safety concerns as a pretext to silence opposing political views. The Swedish Security Service has been spying for several years on "far-right" groups.

Denmark
In Denmark, the Dansk Folkeparti has risen to power, due to the widespread concern about immigration and the potential loss of Danish culture. They look over at what has happened in many swedish cities and do not like what they see. Malmö (in Sweden) is only a 10 minute ride across a bridge from København (capital of Danmark), yet the crime rates are around 9 times higher in Malmö, because of the difference in immigration levels. The Party has been able to have a substancial influence in the government. It usually gets 12 to 14 percent of the votes. There was a big rally a few years ago with protesters holding up swastikas and signs saying "Danmark for Danes". The fact that they displayed swastikas is a very strong statement because there is still much resentment in Danmark over the Nazi occupation of their country.

Norway
Norway has always limited the number of migrants, so it does not really have any strong Nationalist Party. A small but growing portion of Norwergians are, however, becoming increasingly concerned about the ethnic changes taking place in the country, especially in the capital city. Even many feminists are concerned that women will no longer be safe on the streets, and are speaking out against the increase in rapes, particularly gang rapes that were almost unheard of in Norway before. But for the most part, Norwegians are very progressive-minded, and caring towards the asylum seekers living in their country to a degree that is unbelievable to many in other countries. The anti-immigration party's support in local elections fell from 17.5% in 2007, to 11.4% after the Utøya island shootings.

 

The Front National Party in France, which is anti-immigration and considered "far-right" by some, got 15 percent of the votes. It is headed by Marine le Pen, a charismatic female politician:



Despite a strong sense of nationalism, the French are by no means racist. Their nationalism is more about culture, language, and unity, than it is about ethnicity. Nevertheless, the high levels of immigration, rising crime rates, social porblems, and unemployment have led to a growing anti-immigrant sentiment by a portion of the population. The unemployment and economic problems have also caused the Socialists to gain more power.


The national debt problems and rising unemployment rates (especially among the youth) have contributed to the formation of a far-right Nationalist party in Greece:
http://www.politicalforum.com/lates...ek-neo-nazis-enter-parliament-exit-polls.html

At this time, it does not appear that any of the Nationalist parties will gain dominance in any of the governments, but they will continue to exert political influence, especially in immigration policies. But who knows? The National Socialist Party in Germany got around 18% of the votes (in the July 1932 election) before it very quickly increased in popularity a short time later.

 

The "Golden Dawn" now can be a good example of NAZI party that has arrived to the Greek parliament. And they are a nazi party, a truely nazi party.

All countries have some fascist parties, for example in Spain there are some municipalities where there is some presence of fascist parties, for example "Plataforma per Catalunya", Platform for Catalonia, that is a fascist-nazi party.

 

The unemployment problems in Europe are also leading to the growth of the Socialist parties.
In the French 2007 presidential elections (in the final round), the socialist candidate Ségolène Royal got 46.94% of the popular vote, losing the race to Nicolas Sarkozywho by a small margin.

The Communist Parties have mostly been dormant the last few decades, but I expect to them rapidly grow in the coming years. As Europe's unempolyment rate goes up, and the standard of living goes down, European politics will become more polarised into extreme left- and right-wing parties. This is exactly what happened during the economic Depression of the 1930's.

At this time, the various Communist parties in France only have about 6% of the vote in total, but would probably be able to attract many other voters from the other marginal left-leaning parties if they united and ever had a realistic chance of gaining substancial influence in the government.

In one of the elections in Russia, after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Communists still managed to get a third of the popular votes. In the most recent election, the Communists got nearly 20% of the votes.

 

Great Britain's far-right party suffered a major setback in the local elections few days ago and the party lost six council seats and it was only left with three councillors in England. In general, extremist parties can only thrive in socialist-leaning countries where conservative parties are historically very weak (i.e. Norway, the Netherlands) because people are prone to cast a protest vote, disillusioned by established parties and Le Pen's party still has no parliamentary representation in France despite her strong showing in the first round of the presidential election.

 

No you published a false quote...knock it off.

 

To be frank, I think that any major ideology towards this comes from the anti islam extremists in the US so it would be wrong to think of such thinking as having been created in Europe. At the moment no, there is no chance of power. The 7% of the vote given to the Neo Nazi party in Greece is just symptomatic of them being unable to bare the effects of the austerity bailout. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/mar/09/greece-debt-crisis and http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/mar/09/greece-debt-crisis

They have voted for just about as high a number of communists. It is just saying no to their Government's agreement with the austerity bailout.

I cannot see Europeans being prepared to be slaves, so if the Governments in power do not do something about that there is going to be an increase in more radical parties. Unfortunately when you couple that with the Islaophobia propaganda which has been being spread for the past ten or twenty years, you do create a situation which could seduce some that way.

Sarkozy was very divisive in France and that seemed to have opened some people's minds to accept the views of Le Pen. She is hoping for seats in Parliament in the Legislative elections next month. Hollande however made clear in his speech yesterday that he was about all France and not into the divisive tactics of Sarkozy.

Most West Europeans have a strong antipathy to such. Denmark moved to the left after Breivik's slaughter for instance.

This is a lie perpetrated by anit islamists and their White Nationalists. Funnily enough I found this out when on Stormfront and someone suggesting people did a google search on it!

http://electronicintifada.net/blog/...lamophobic-libel-rape-epidemic-muslims-norway


Obviously there is a situation now. Europe has been getting fed Muslim hatred for the past ten years through a transatlantic network of anti-islam extremists http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/08/islamophobia.html creating a situation in some countries where there is a voice for discrimination rather than integration. Take that with the continuing recession and it certainly is possible that white nationalists and anti islam extremists will get together but also likely that at some point the anti islamist extremists will think it is too much. - one of them has told me that is his position anyway.

So no, certainly in Western Europe they are not in any where near gaining any power but in the light of the strong anti-islam propaganda plus the prolonged global recession and recession started in the US, they are one of the possible outcomes in some countries - unlikely though imo to ever get strong support but Europe does need to sort out it's economy.

I would be in favour of debt free loans but I understand that might bring the US to bomb us!! We have to get the banking and loan system sorted out.

 

I read that neo Nazis won more seats in Greece.

 

The won 21 seats on 6.97% of the votes. The communists won 19 seats on 6.10% of the vote

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/data...06/greece-elections-results-map?newsfeed=true

 

There are various forms of nationalists here in Europe.
-Those who manifest against migration and Islam and are pro Israel, like in the Netherlands.
- Those who don´t support Israel, like in Austria (FPÖ: 25%)and France (FN: 18%)
- German national parties are very small and also differs in their views.

 

I think the nationalist parties in general are on the rise in Europe. It takes a certain threshold for them to break through, like a dam that bursts. The danish peoples party was one of the first to do so. I think only Austria came before. Sweden was one of the last contries to get such a party. There is great shame in being in one of these parties or voting for them. Or at least the left tries it's best to make that so. That is why they often to better at the elections than at the polls.

The main motivation behind these parties seems to be to limit muslim immigration. I don't hear any warmongering from these parties. I think they would be considered middle-of-the-road in the US.

These parties gain influence in two ways: They spook the center parties into changing their own immigration policies to avoid loosing too many votes. And sometimes they act as support parties in a coalition government. For example, the danish peoples party voted YES to the governments economic policy in return for stricter immigration laws. Now that the socialists are in power, they are trying the same thing! That's because the DPP don't really care about economics, only about the immigrants.

I don't think there is any real risk of these parties gaining power. If they get too big, the center parties will alter their own immigration politics to match that of the right wing and thus steal their votes and take the wind out of thier sails. It's called "weather vane politics" and is so popular with the two main parties in Denmark that you can barely tell them apart!

 

The term 'Nationalist' used to describe Nazi-like behavior is a bit of a canard. Most folks identify with their Nation and there is nothing wrong with that however, combining nationalism with a highly ordered Socialist movement headed by a central governmental structure and/or figure, has historically been the road to war, genocide and disaster.

Just because a nation sees an anomie developing in their country does not indicate their inevitable and unstoppable gravitation toward Nazism.

 

The difference is between civic or liberal Nationalism and ethnic Nationalism. Generally when people are talking about nationalism in a negative way, they are talking about ethnic Nationalism. I heard for instance the New Golden Dawn member saying 'out out out, out of my country' today.

Likewise when we are talking about Nationalism nowadays we almost always are speaking of people who are ethnic nationalists and they are as Bleipriester said in Europe of two types. The ones who are pro Israel and the ones who are not, though there is great interlinking of the two also happening. The neo nazi's are a bit more in your face but both think they and/or their culture is superior not simply to other countries but to immigrants simply because they originated somewhere else. I don't yet understand where the relationship with Israel is but even neo nazi's have visited Israel to offer their support and been welcomed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism

 

Exactly....my point is the word 'nationalist' is most often used in a negative way by socialist-liberals to describe anyone concerned with borders, language and culture (not ethnicity). The problem with immigration comes when (as in the U.S.) borders are being traversed by folks who do not wish to become part of America but want to participate in the greater potential for wealth as compared to their native country. These folks would like their 'host' country to be culturally like their own.

The problem in Europe has been the Socialist-liberal 'progressive' thinking to allow divergent cultures to develop within their countries. Since one of the tenets of Islam is the establishment of a government/religion theocracy, encouraging cultural acceptance was and is a big mistake. Many countries in Europe are starting to experience a changing of their identity.

This change of identity will not sit well with folks and some of the more radical nationalists could replicate the atrocities of Nazi Germany. That is the fear and the cause is anti-nationalist, socialist thinking.

I regard ethnicity as food, customs and religion of a country or region. In America a wide range of ethnicity has been a contribution and an enrichment of our American culture. The problem is when a group of people from one country enter another and wish to change that country's CULTURE to their own. As I have mentioned, a country needs borders, language its own CULTURE.

 

nope, it is not at all what you are about to say!

It is unusual to call anti-islam extremists 'nationalists'. Generally they are called anit islam extremists or new far right populist parties. However it is probably fairly accurate to call them Nationalists. That is what it is at base. For instance Pim Fortuym said 'One country, one people, one nation'. He tried to duck out of this later on saying it had been said some years before. However people don't usually change their minds on such basic things and if you watch this video towards the end you will see him expressing that view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nC-JEM_3dM&feature=related

Muslims are all grouped together regardless of the reality that they come from many different cultures. Hence are being seen regarding race relations as an ethnicity...just like Jews come from all races but we speak of anti-semitism.

You should see the Brits in Spain!!! The US did better for a while when it changed it's laws to become inclusive and to ask people to agree to ideals without having to give up all of who they were. Integration into a country always takes a generation or two. The US itself is a country of immigrants. It was created by physical and cultural genocide.

This is just balls created by anti islam extremist propaganda as is your view of Europe. Both are caricatures created by ignorance.

I never was asked to accept anything I did not agree with. My Mother taught me when I was 4 that there were all kinds of different people in the world of different colour and appearance but we were all equal as people'. I had never seen anyone but white people like myself but it made sense to me that any other people would be equal. I knew straight away something was up. That was it.

This country developed laws to stop prejudice to give people equal rights. It hasn't been perfect but that is how it is. No one has ever told me I have to accept anything I do not want to. Just that I respect others as I would wish to be respected.

This country is vastly different to when I was born. When I was born children were seen and not heard, most people went to church on Sundays, homosexuality was illegal, racism towards blacks and Irish was common, women were inferior, people knew their place.

Our culture like any culture is in constant change. Anyone who does not understand that is deluding themselves. Our culture also is created by and for all our citizens. To not go with that is ethnic nationalism.

Here I agree with you and why I think we need to keep well on top of such ideas trying to permeate society wherever they come from. For instance in the UK such people tend to go and pick up supporters from football thugs and so don't inspire the general population and are unlikely to gain much support. However as someone on another forum mentioned we probably need to be more aware of them possibly sneaking in through our established parties like the Conservatives...but it will never happen under normal circumstances. The main problem is the economy and that is what people need to attend to.

What American culture? As I said you began with physical and cultural genocide. You are an immigrant Nation. Who you are is the sum of all your people continually changing.

 

My point was (and is) that extremism flourishes when multi-culturalism is allowed to take over a country. This is because the basic tenets of that original culture have been undermined. If left unchecked, instability, revolution and war will inevitably result.

Muslim nations are theocracies which is antithetical to modern-day separation of church and State which is the widely accepted ideology of most Western nations.

Yes, the U.S. is a country of immigrants who came here with the intention of becoming part of the American culture. They did not expect Americans to learn their language or change America to fit their culture. There is a difference between legal immigrants and illegal aliens who wish to establish their own culture/State within our nation's borders.

The problem is not the Muslim religion it is the historical fact that Islam nations are theocracies and radical Islam seems to be on the rise around the world. This causes folks to become jittery when their governments seem helpless in the face of increasing immigration of Muslim folks and the clashes that take place because of Islamist dogma.

A theocracy will never ask you to accept their religion, you will be MADE to accept it.

'Equal rights' does not encompass the overthrow and undermining of a society by insisting on rejecting its cultural heritage and trying to set up one's own culture. That is known as an invasion from which the State has every 'right' to defend itself. That is not 'extremist.'

Nothing wrong with change as long as it is not imposed. I don't know when you were born but I am older than dirt and I NEVER experienced the 'seen and not heard' mantra except as a joke. I was never raised to be prejudiced against anyone. Yes culture is created by all citizens but holding out for special 'sharia' law, creating 'no go' areas except for Muslims, etc. is not being a citizen. In America, folks of all religions can worship in freedom, display their ethnicity, their ethnic art, music, food, etc. without repression. Prohibiting any particular culture from seizing control of a country is not Nazi-like nationalism it is protecting a nation from invasive attempts.

Well, socialists have already permeated the left in America and have been a predominant force in both government and the media for many decades now. Indeed even some radical-socialist-liberal thinking is now considered 'main stream.' True conservatives who point this out are now called 'radical' or 'extreme' which is not the case.

The American culture is based on our Constitution not a progressive series of CULTURES from other parts of the world. As I said, LEGAL immigrants want to be Americans not hyphenated Americans. It's a bit disingenuous to point to America and claim 'genocide' of the native Americans when the rest of the world has done the same and worse over the centuries. If I were living in Europe, I'd be concerned about the growing 'Eurabia' movement such as 'no go' areas, creeping Sharia, etc.

 

Part 1

Honestly, this just sounds bizarre to me. It is just words and means nothing, I have no knowledge of having been taken over by this multiculturalism.

and as I pointed out this is an ongoing process, certainly once you get past living as a simply society.

and who are these people wanting to cause the instability, revolution and war?

I don't live in a Muslim Nation.

who came there with the intention of taking over American culture. Who wanted America to be a white's only culture.

True they slaughtered them and destroyed their culture.

Yes I would agree with that though I always start seeing people from outer space when you American's call illegal people aliens.

Why would there be a problem to America which is not based on the Muslim religion if there was a rise in radical Islam in other parts of the world.

Governments are not helpless with immigration. They choose who they want to allow in. Again why should radical Islam in Pakistan bother you. One heck of a job for Imran Khan or others to sort out but why would that make you feel scared of Muslims who have become American?

http://www.pewforum.org/Press-Room/...oderate-Attitudes-Among-Muslim-Americans.aspx

http://www.people-press.org/files/2011/08/muslim-american-report.pdf

America stand a far more realistic chance of becoming a Christian Fundamentalist theocracy than an Islam one. Muslims are only 0.6% of the religious in America. Yet you believe they are intent on a 'take over'.

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

I was looking for one of the Pew polls which showed that Muslims felt themselves equally Muslim and American whereas around I think 43% of Christians see themselves as Christians first and Americans second. Like I said you are in far more danger of become a Christian Fundamentalist Theocracy.

Indeed and no one is doing this. We have one who would like to. He's called Chaudhray. He starts groups called Islam4UK or Muslims against crusades and usually just has around 12 followers though he can get up to 70 and occasionally 200. They meet and have fights with the EDL. Other Muslims have chased them out of town before. He'd like Sharia Law in the UK but having a maximum following of about 200 out of over 2,000,000 Muslims, other Muslims finding him as embarrassing as most countries feel if there's votes for the far right, I am not to worried. For a while we need to look out for the odd terrorist as well, but we have been doing that for a long time in Northern Ireland where there still is the odd bomb going off, bombs which for the worst of the 'troubles' were financed by the fine people of your country.

Most Muslims simply want to be accepted and get on with their lives. There is no one Muslim voice that is what you need to start understanding. They are not going to take over America or Britain that is absurd. They certainly need equal rights though and the opportunity through working and achievement to build a decent life that they can be proud of.

sometimes change is opposed. We do it all the time with laws.

So you are ridiculing the culture I was born into are you? So much for your belief in that great lost culture! Quit then speaking about this supposed great culture you want to keep. It was true not just in being told it but also in all aspects of child rearing. I would prefer you did not make the suggestion I was lying,

Ah, self taught perhaps. You see when you speak of cultural values, that is one I think of with the UK. Now not everyone lives up to it to be sure but I think it is. We like to be fair and not hit the underdog.

there is no Sharia Law in the US

I'm pretty sure there are no no go areas in the US as well, just like there are none in the UK. You have police don't you. We did have some though at times in the 'troubles' in NI. Death and destruction financed by your country.

Talking about prohibiting a people from many different cultures simply because they are of a particular religion and claiming they want to seize control of that country when they have absolutely no intention or ability to do so is like Nazi nationalism. You are trying to build a rational to oppress and mistreat but what you are doing it with is lies and propaganda. You are trying to build up world wide hate of these people to fulfil your objective.

seems like the right place for them to be

I don't agree with you there. You say you have grey hairs. You ought to be able to remember the US much more socialist and your parents ought to be able to remember even more socialist - hey maybe that is the culture you are looking for!!

I am taking it you are having a laugh!

it just sounds an inane thing to say. What happened to Liberal Democracy in the US?


Cont in part 2

 

that'd be whites only then if you want to go back to then...I know it got an appendix or something later to allow citizenship to those not white but that is how it began. I don't think a Constitution is culture. It is more the rights, responsibilities and norms of a country - mind you I have never had the luxury of having one written for me to study, Darn it, the UK must have no culture at all, despite having thousands of years of history, not always united. The reality is all the Constitution is something which every citizen who comes to the US has to deal with. It has changed in time though. Originally it only saw white people as possible citizens. Now if that is what you are calling 'culture' then you are indeed an ethnic nationalist. Europe has had culture for thousands of years and that culture has always been in constant change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture

Culture is an ever changing phenomena created by all the citizens for all the citizens. It used to be created just by those in power, aristocracies, slave owners and so on but since democracy it is created by all of the citizens and is in a state of constant change. I have already illustrated briefly how it has changed since my childhood in the UK. In another 50 years it will also change and how it will change will depend on the people who are alive now and how they act. We may well find ourselves once again living in an extremely repressive societies. We may also grow into something much better. That future culture is shaping itself and will be built on the values created now. Victimising a group of people because of their religion is not a good omen for the future but I trust most people are too developed to get involved in this hateful activity. Intolerance will not create a good culture for the future. In the future white people will not have an overall majority. It makes sense to treat others as you would like to be treated. Those new to your culture will take their cue from you and if you are intolerant you make it more likely they will be.

You cannot say what another person wants. Indeed I was reading only recently that immigrants found it much easier to feel a sense of belonging in the US because they were able to feel a hyphenated identity. You cannot deny a person their identity and expect them to feel at home. That is poor psychology and bound to lead to poor outcomes. I think you are trying to set up a scenario to fail your immigrants...but too late. I hear just about every community in the world already has their little spot in the USofA

Not disingenuous, it is the harsh truth.

No, I think what you did ranks around one of the worst genocides. It certainly does not change that that is what your 'culture' is based on and that you are a country of immigrants from all over the world.

Lucky for you you are not then. I love that you use the term 'creeping Sharia' as I was just flipping through an article which mentioned that was one of the rightest in America's terms. The Eurabia movement was debunked long ago and I don't know of any country which has no go areas or Sharia Law apart from if mutually agreed on concerning family matters to fit in with Beth Din Jewish law in the UK. This has been used by Jews for over a hundred years and is possible because of a loophole in our law which allows for arbitration if both parties want it. It always is subservient to British Law.

 

The huge difference between usa and europe with national parties.

In europe they are allowed to run freely. Which curbs their growth (they never grow beyond a certain size and not banning it causes monitoring of such behaviour)

The usa seems to be stuck in 2 parties, without their national parties able to have a voice. So all their racist rage seems to bubble away in the republican party. As you see on this forum with so many american 'rights' acting like the Golden Dawn or the BNP.

(Golden Dawn is a great name. A pity racist idiots are using it.)

 

It's actually quite incredible that they have the nerve to act like this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2012/may/08/greece-press-freedom

It looks likely that Greece will have a new election soon. Do they really expect people to put up with that sort of behaviour?

Here's another

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/07/neo-nazi-golden-dawn-party-greece

I know Stormfront had a thread whooping it up and saying that they really were the real thing and the first since Germany's Nazi's but do they really think that showing their true colours so early on, that they have a hope in hell of wining anyone over. Prior to the election they had been providing food and clothing to the poor in order to get their votes and beating up immigrants.

 

You ask if nationalistic political movements are (a) fascist or (b) nationalistic?

I'd say: neither.

Example: Belgium, Flanders: the N-VA, New Flemish Alliance.