Since 5,000 B.C.-the Egyptians have been Arab Semitic White. Afro Centrists often mistakenly claim the Black Nubians/people of Kemit/Sudanese were the Ancient Egyptians. This is proven incorrect by DNA(haploid testing) and anthropological measurements(mainly the skull) There was/is much mixing of the two ethnicites and the Hamites are believed to be the result. Berbers and Moors are essntially Arabs with 8-15% Black heritage. The late Anwar Sadat was an example of such heritage-his father was an Arab Semitic Whie Egyptian and his mother was Black Sudanese(Nubian/people of Kemit. Egypt annexed part of Ancient Nubia in 1520 B.C.(the remainder being present day Sudan). In fact, part of the reason for the war in Sudan is because the indigenous Black Sudanese feel the immigrant Arab Semitic Whites are spreading too fast and wish to annex Sudan. The rebel Janjaweed(often mistakenly called Arabs), are Black Sudanese Muslims, speaking Arabic, practicing Islam, and accepting Arab Semitic White culture. They are killing Black Sudanese, their own ethnicity, and, are rightfully called traitors by the Black Sudanese. For a more in depth answer, go to: http://naturescorner.wordpress.com/2008/12/13/where-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white/
Do i have to post images again? "Semitic" is a linguistic group that does not include a "race" , i mean race is just a description how you can tell a Jew from an Azeri? The Berbers like the Tuareg are indigenous north Africa people . I never said that Arabs and Nubians are the same just that some of the Pharaohs were Nubian like for example several of the Byzantine emperors were Caucasian ( Armenian / Georgian) .
Is there some reason that you are being snotty? Most Arabs have direct or partial ancestral relation to the nomadic indigenous inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula and the Syrian desert, known as Qahtanite and Adnanite Arabs. - - - Updated - - - I am well aware that Semite is a language group... I think there were six Nubian Pharaohs ... over a period of 100 years. The link above is a DNA study.
I am not snotty i am just stating what i have read around hoping from someone to challenge me with more up to date information , i enjoy those threads and look to learn more. Indigenous "of the peninsula" is an incorrect description , Albanians , Romanians, Thrancians and Greeks are all "indigenous" of the Balkan Peninsula that it is like 3 times smaller than the Arabian yet not only we have different "nationalities" but also different languages, customs , cultures and history . I doubt that a Syrian , an Iraqi and a Bedouin are "just Arabs" , they are as much as old Balkanians are "just Indoeuropeans" . Nothing new there, Egypt was not in the Amazonas there are written accounts by everyone and his mother about them and none describe them as black. The "controversy" is because some guys in places with very little sun think that tan can only be acquired through spraying .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeogenetics_of_the_Near_East Egypt[edit] Main article: DNA history of Egypt Contamination from handling and intrusion from microbes create obstacles to the recovery of Ancient DNA.Consequently most DNA studies have been carried out on modern Egyptian populations with the intent of learning about the influences of historical migrations on the population of Egypt. In general, various DNA studies have found that the gene frequencies of North African populations are intermediate between those of the Near East, the Horn of Africa, southern Europe and Sub Saharan Africa, though Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component. Blood typing and DNA sampling on ancient Egyptian mummies is scant; however, blood typing of dynastic mummies found ABO frequencies to be most similar to modern Egyptians and some also to Northern Haratin populations. ABO blood group distribution shows that the Egyptians form a sister group to North African populations, including Berbers, Nubians and Canary Islanders.Scholars such as Frank Yurco believe that Modern Egyptians are largely representative of the ancient population, and the DNA evidence appears to support this view.
The founder of the first dynasty was clearly what we would describe as 'black'. AEgypt was divided into 2 lands for alot of it's history, the 2 lands being upper (black) and lower egypt (asiatic). Upper AEgypt was seen as the spiritual home of Aegyptians, any body who has studied the history knows that Upper Egypt was the place where it all happened. Lower egypt was a mish mash of ethnic groups and was mainly the agricultural centre, the farmers and not the governors/rulers.
I believe that my thread concerning the race issue will put an end to the debate, and conclude that Ancient Egypt was primarily an African nation. I have the genetics, comparison of cultures between Egypt and other African regions, the writings and descriptions of writers from Ancient Greece to the modern era, and pictures, to prove it. http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=334991 This thread is a continuous project, in which I'm collecting more research and clues that will settle the debate, that Ancient Egypt was clearly African.
noooo...you're confusing upper Egypt with Kush...and it's an unverifiable opinion that lower eygpt was a mix of ethnic groups, more likely a number of hunter gathers that formed into clans all from from a singular ethnicity...your "two lands" (upper/lower) is geographic description rather than of distinct peoples... just as upper, middle and lower germany was geographic, many warring tribal groups but ethnically they were all Germanic... agriculture is the center piece of civilization, it's the foundation which allows the development of class society, specialist tradesmen, soldiers, priest class, bureaucracy and ruling class....and the Egyptians of upper Egypt were farmers as well... - - - Updated - - - you're going to settle this debate?...you have photos?
if you look up geographic distribution of blood groups there's nothing that really definitive...DNA is going to supply the only definitive answer...but historical evidence which goes back a long way for eygpt records no major displacement of ancient eygptians, there have DNA additions from invaders but these are the same people today that have been there for the last 5000 yrs....
Ahh, easily done, considering during the 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th and 25th Dynasties, Kush and Aegypt was interchangeable. so you think upper and lower was just geographic? It was more than that. Its so complex and has more to do with Gods (they were pagans) with lower worshipping Horus and Upper worshipping Amun. It was a spiritual battle, imo it has alot to do with the Afrikans in upper and the Asians in Lower Egypt. There is a parallel in Sudan today. Are you of the opinion that that is not Ethnic tensions also? How about the Zanzibar revolution? Geographic and not Ethnic? The patterns are very striking. The fortifications in Memphis, between upper and lower. To protect who from who exactly? The prophecy of Neferti during the middle Kingdom 'Asiatics who roam the land. Foes have risen in the East, Asiatics have come down to Egypt'' Its so much more complex than you think.
The reason Menes wanted to unite the two lands was because lower egypt had the farming land and upper egypt had the priesthood. It was the combination of the two that made Aegypt the nation it became. - - - Updated - - - excuse me for my ignorance but did you provide this dna proof yet?
By S.O.Y Keita. The major features of cultural and political development that led to dynastic Egypt originated in southern Egypt during what is called the predynastic period. Some evidence suggests that predynastic Egyptian and early Nubian cultures had ties to the early Saharan cultures and shared a Saharo-Nilotic heritage. Perhaps the earliest predynastic culture, the Badarian-Tasian* (4400 B.C. or earlier, to 4000 B.C.), had the clearest ties to Saharan cultures in the desert west of Nubia. The subsequent development, known as Naqada culture (3900 to around 3050 B.C.) by numerous scholars, had three phases and led directly to the 1st dynasty in southern Egypt without a break or evidence of foreign domination. It had three major centers in Upper Egypt, the small kingdoms of Naqada, Hierakonpolis, and Abydos, which came to be a much revered place in Egypt. The cemetery grounds of Abydos contain the largest tomb of a predynastic ruler, along with the burials of all the kings of the 1st dynasty. Naqada culture expanded north in its later phases, culturally incorporating northern Egypt before the 1st dynasty. There is also evidence at some sites—including Hierakonpolis, where the famous Narmer Palette was found—for interactions with Nubian societies, specifically one called the A-Group, whose kings shared some insignia with Egypt. By the time the 1st dynasty began, Egypt and Nubia were rivals; Egypt defeated the A-Group state and incorporated its territory, which became a part of the first province of Upper Egypt.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Manetho/home.html Manetho Manetho was an Egyptian priest who lived in the 3c B.C. and wrote one or more books in Greek to acquaint the Mediterranean world with the history and civilization of his country. His original works have perished; what has survived has been transmitted to us as fragments in about a dozen ancient authors, the most important of whom are Josephus, who quotes long passages of connected discourse, and Eusebius and the Christian chronographer Africanus, who for the most part have preserved dry lists of Egyptian kings, grouped by "Dynasties" and only infrequently relieved by a bit of context. For many centuries — once the knowledge of hieroglyphics had been lost — the writings of Manetho, mangled as they are, were one of the world's chief sources of information on Egyptian history; only with the 19c decipherment of hieroglyphics and archaeological investigations was Manetho slowly superseded in favor of first-hand knowledge from the papyri and tombs of Egypt themselves. In the course of my transcription, though, I came to realize how much we owe even now to this ancient author: the entire framework of Egyptian history as we are used to it (the Kingdoms, the Dynasties) is as recorded by Manetho; and he served those 19c archaeologists, and continues to serve archaeologists today, as a guide. And dull as those dry lists of names and numbers are, in the varying corrupted forms preserved to us, chronologists and Biblical students also continue to find them of use.
you can not have a dedicated priesthood without neolithic culture, it just doesn't happen... have you yet?
You claimed specifically that ' DNA additions from invaders but these are the same people today that have been there for the last 5000 yrs. '. How can they have the same genetics as 4,000 years ago when those genetics have been altered by [in your words] additions from invaders?
Lets ask the Egyptians themselves if they think they are Arabs (Arabian = not AEgyptian); In July 2007 I was commissioned by CNN to produce a feature story on Egyptian identity. The four-minute piece was to air on CNN’s Inside Africa, a weekly show that takes pride in showing viewers the ‘real’ Africa in all its diversity, rich heritage, and culture. Unlike other programmes that often focus on poverty and disease when covering the dark continent , this is a show that looks at the success stories of Africans. My producer in Atlanta , Georgia , at the time was Cynthia Nelson, an African-American . She asked me to devote my four- minute piece to whether Egyptians really consider themselves Africans. I hired a camera crew and set out on my mission, thinking I would only prove the obvious: Wasn’t Egypt in North Africa? Therefore, Egyptians are Africans. But it wasn’t simply a matter of geographical location-the issue turned out to be much more complex than that. I did not know it at the time but I was to be most astonished at what I would soon discover. I spent the next couple of days interviewing hundreds of Egyptians– not just academics and researchers but also laymen and women in different districts in Cairo — asking how they view themselves. My question raised a few eyebrows among people on the streets, the majority of whom replied ” I’m a Muslim Arab, of course ” or “an Arab Muslim .” They shrugged their shoulders and looked perplexed as they responded for wasn’t it an already-known fact that Egyptians are Arabs and that Egypt has a majority Muslim population ? A few of the interviewees said that they “were descendants of the Pharoahs” but surprisingly, none in the sample interviewed thought of themselves as Africans. Their responses led me to contemplate the conceptual Sahara divide. For centuries, the Sahara Desert has been viewed as a vast impenetrable barrier dividing our continent into two distinct areas : Northern “white” and sub-Saharan “black” Africa. The countries south of the Sahara have long been considered authentically “African” while those to the north have been perceived as Mediterranean, Middle Eastern or Islamic. While most anthropologists refute this perception of Africa as “inaccurate”, it has nevertheless, influenced the way people think about the continent and our region in particular. Apparently, it has also impacted the way Egyptians view themselves. Many Egyptians are oblivious to their “African-ness “, failing to identify themselves as Africans. When confronted with the reality of their African roots, some Egyptians are stunned, others reluctant to acknowledge the fact. Though I hate to admit it, we are a racist people. African refugees living in Egypt often complain of discrimination and verbal and physical harassment on the streets. Egyptians look down on darker-skinned sub-Saharans as their “inferiors,” they claim. Historian Jill Kamel confirms this, explaining that it may be attributed to the fact that across generations, Egypt’s elite community was made up mostly of lighter-skinned Egyptians whereas the underprivileged Egyptians were those toiling under the hot sun to earn their bread. ”Egyptians have thus come to associate fair skin with elitism,” she said.
all that verifies is people are ignorant of geography and follow social constructs... I was born in europe but geographically speaking there is no such continent... geographically I was born on the asia continent but for our social cultures have inaccurately divided into europe and asia so I'm european, it's an inaccurate label but irrelevant geographically, it's only relevant socially... the same can be applied to North Africa and sub-saharan africa, they may sit on the same land mass but the desert is just as an effective barrier to human genetics as an ocean of water
hmmm, if it wasn't this thread I apologize...you and I discussed it earlier...invaders are generally swamped genetically by the more numerous host, genetically you can find traces of them but physically they disappear, they come to look like the host... If I and a dozen families like mine genetically moved to Nigeria in the short term our descendent would be unique physically among the host population...but it's inevitable our unique physical differences would disappear through intermarriage and with time the only trace left of us would be genetic and over time even that becomes more obscure...
if you look further into Keita you'll also find he says Egyptians are still the same people today that they were 5K yrs ago, they were never displaced by invaders...the invaders were assimilated...invaders changed their culture, religion and their language but they're still the same people...
