I'm an undergraduate student, currently intending to go on to law school, previously intending to go on to medical school. Both are relatively easy to get statistics on to figure out what programs are realistic for potential applicants. You can look at law school admission statistics here, and medical school statistics are available here and here. But I'm having difficulty finding such statistics for graduate schools for history and philosophy, or other such continuation of undergraduate degrees. Is anyone aware of any site that has this information?
I am not quite sure what you are interested in doing, nor what you are interested in knowing. I just finished up my masters in Middle Eastern Studies, and I can tell you that the thing you are going to want to look into most is what you want to focus on for your studies and choose a program which fits your intended topic of study. That is because there is no clear hierarchy in masters programs for history in the way there is in Law schools. So if you wanted to do East Asian history, with a focus on Chinese Muslims, I know NYU would be a really great place to go. If you wanted to focus on the interconnection between state power and business power in the Middle East, university of Pennsylvania would be a really good place to go. If you wanted to focus on Stalin Era Soviet Union, University of Chicago would be a really good place to go. In other words, there are a handful of top level schools. A masters from all of them will carry a similar level of prestige and will provide a similar level of resume advancement. However, the current professors at a school determine whether or not you will be a good fit there. That will impact your level of enjoyment in the program, but it will also impact the likelihood you will be accepted to the program. So for example I was accepted into the masters program in Middle Eastern Studies at a few places, but the two places I was most interested in were University of Chicago and NYU. U of C is generally a better school than NYU, but U of C's program is very heavily focused on Medieval history, Egyptology, and Islamic law sorts of subjects. My topic of research was a specific group of protestors during the uprisings in Egypt in 2011. NYU has a program with some of the foremost scholars in the world on Egyptian history and is much more focused on the modern period, so I chose NYU. On top of that, I was accepted to NYU and U of C, but not accepted to my backup school. Essentially because they told me my research interests don't fit in well with the current staffs research interests. So long story short, matching your research interests with the research interests of the program and a specific professor will be very important. Do some research, decide what path you want to go down (you can always change it of course), and decide which programs and professors you would fit with. Then in your statement of purpose you can say I want to research this topic with this professor, and if it is a good fit, it improves your chances of acceptance greatly. As far as law school goes, I am also planning on applying for law school, and I am taking the LSAT in the summer. I know that with the current job market, if you don't get into a top 15 school, it is a waste of time and money to go to law school at the moment, because it will be hard finding a job coming from other schools. Lastly, unless you really don't want to go to medical school, you should definitely go to medical school. There are no issues finding employment for recent graduates from medical school. The health care industry is expanding rapidly and provides lots of jobs. So if you don't really want to go to medical school then don't, but if you are equally interested in all 3 options, then medical school is the best option IMO.
Grad degree in history and philosophy? C'mon man. School is expensive. Just read up and don't pay for it. Those degrees ain't worth a thing. Law degree will get you a job, even if you decide being a lawyer isn't for you. Interesting and challenging curriculum and the Socratic method is enjoyable. I would go with that. I am a fisherman with my law degree, but I still enjoyed the experience. It helps as a business owner I have never had to hire an attorney.
I'm new in the philosophy area, but I've been interested in history for a long time, though I'm now majoring in both. I'm still considering a further degree in history, but will probably stick with going into law. But I'm not even sure yet what area of history I'd be drawn most to. I like medieval history, and have always found certain portions of it very interesting, but the things that medieval historians tend to find interesting seem dry to me. I'm generally most interested in military warfare, scattered throughout periods. As far as law school, I wouldn't get your hopes down on that front. From what I've read, the job market for lawyers recently got much more harsh, and there's something of a surplus right now. I don't have the source handy, but I read that after the most recent financial meltdown law firms were forced to layoff lawyers, mostly young ones, leaving something like half of lawyers with 2 years or less unemployed. But from what I've been able to see, it's still not that bleak. If you look at this link you'll find that some law schools, even ones far from the top 15, crank out some high rollers. The median starting salary for Rutgers grads is $117.5k, more than the average student loans coming out of Rutgers, and they're ranked 86th. Looking at that other law school link I provided in the OP, I found a few schools that seem to be well worth it. Hofstra and Houston are actually fairly easy to get into, and both have nearly 95% of graduates employed in their field within twelve months. Northeastern is similar, with more prestige, though a bit harder to get into. And, like you said about graduate schools, law schools are much the same. UNH is ranked somewhere in the 100s, but it's one of the top ranked intellectual property law programs. I'm in somewhat of a bind, because I've been planning on going to Umaine - it's home, and after 4 years in the Navy and 4 years of undergrad in Minnesota, I kind of miss home, and the school provides lower tuition for Maine residents (after average grants, it's below $20k/yr), but only 78% of their graduates find employment a year out of law school. hmmm, interesting. I've actually been leaning towards going for real estate law or maritime law. Part of my problem is I have a low GPA, which is entirely explainable, but from what I understand most law schools weed out and then ask questions. Right now I have a 2.963, with one course that I need to speak to the registrar about because I withdrew and it's marked down as an F (should bring my gpa up just above a 3.0), but that's still not competitive. My GPA's been getting better each semester, I had a 3.33 this last semester with what may be called challenging courses, but even then I know it's not competitive. I'm kind of banking on my LSAT, because I've always been good at testing. I got a 94 on the ASVAB and a 1960 on the SATs, both without studying, and I certainly plan on studying my a** off for the LSAT.
You are right of course. If I went to the University of Nebraska, I would probably be able to find a job in Lincoln, but I wouldn't want that. I will apply to schools in the top 15, as well as a few schools outside the top 15 located in the areas of the country I would want to work in after graduation. I won't get a job in the places I want to live, going to a school outside the top 15, unless it is local. So my top three choices are Columbia, NYU, and Northwestern. I grew up in the Chicago suburbs about 10 minutes from Northwestern and they have an excellent reputation, so I would be happy there. I also loved my experience living in New York and going to NYU, so that is probably my first choice. Columbia would also allow me to live in New York, and is an elite level school. However, depending on how I do on my LSAT, I would also consider other schools in the top 100 in New York City and Chicago. Places like Depaul, Loyola, Fordham, and Brooklyn College would all be places I would consider, but only under the right circumstances. Meaning only if I were offered significant levels of funding. I have no undergrad debt and had most of my masters program paid for by the government, by a program called FLAS. Since I was learning Arabic, and that is seen as a important language by the US government, most of my masters was funded. I accrued a small amount of debt, but not a lot. However, law school will bury me in debt. I can only see that as a justifiable step to take if I get into a top 15 school or if I get funding from a school outside the top 15. PS. I know the government helps veterans with funding for undergrad, but does that also extend to graduate studies? If so, go get a masters. It doesn't hurt. If you get good grades in your masters program, you can point to that on your law school applications as a sign of your progression as a student.
I can tell you that you learn a lot more in a graduate program than you would reading independently. If you read a book and discuss that book with a scholar who specializes in the subject and your peers (who will mostly be very intelligent), which is essentially what graduate seminars entail, you will gain insight into the readings which would be extremely difficult on your own. Now I wouldn't recommend getting into a lot of debt to go to school, but if you can get funding, it is an enjoyable and illuminating experience IMO. Speaking of funding, look into doing history or area studies with a focus on history, in an area outside of Europe and the Americas. If you do anything related to China, Iran, any Arabic speaking country, Russia, and a few other places I know you would qualify for FLAS or CLS. However, there are many other similar programs available. Look into it. It is very useful
All about your LSAT. Do the Kaplan 180 tests if they still have them. Make sure to time yourself when you study. LSAT is about speed.
If you like history and other cultures take comparative law then. You get to do all of that and you will be able to read and understand the law that governed those societies. Win win.
This may be a dumb question, but what do you actually want to do for a living? You are at a critical point. If you aspire to get a phd, law school is not the way to go as the JD is not considered a terminal degree and there are very few LLM options and not that many people do it. You end up in an academic gap if that is not what your really want to do. If it is what you want to do, it will give you more career options and you can always just start your own law firm if worst comes to worst. Your GPA is a little low there so you definitely need to do well on the LSAT and may want to consider your state school as you will get the in-state preference. Don't worry about that if you don't go to an upper Tier 1 program, there is no point doing it nonsense. Medical school is a huge time commitment. It will be years before you could be out of training and actually practicing and doctor pay is under a lot of government pressure, but if that is what you really want to do, go for it. I wouldn't do grad school in history or philosophy unless you aspire to teach or become a professor down the road.
I don't have any stats right handy, but I know that a lot of schools actually have students go out of state, particularly private schools, but yeah, schools obviously do give an edge in the local area. Ah, I see why cost would be more of a concern for you than it is for me. The GI Bill is only good for 36 academic months (really 4 years because of summers), regardless of where it's used. I paid for my first year of undergrad out of pocket, taking only $3500 in subsidized loans - I was pretty pleased with myself, because tuition was $39,000, room was $7,000, then there were books and fees, but I did have around 35k in grants, all considered. I'm now using the GI Bill for the other three years and saving one year for law school, so when I graduate from law school I'll basically have 2yrs of law school debt, +$3,500. I probably won't get my master's as a stepping stone to law school. As it is, I'll be just a few months shy of 30 when I graduate law school, if there are no delays - if I'm going to go to college for a further 6yrs, it'll be towards a doctorate and I'll become a professor. They don't make bank, but it's certainly enough for such a cush job.
My dream job is to be a history professor, but it's an odd job. The pay isn't something I'll sneer at by any means, it's enough to make me happy, but it's actually far harder to land one of those jobs than it is to become a lawyer. I'm kind of just being realistic here - becoming a lawyer is kind of the safety for me because, even if I did get into grad school with my grades, then got my doctorate, it's still a super-competitive field and I'd probably have to move away from where I want to live if I was to get a job. But, that's not the only job I can see myself enjoying - I do think I'd enjoy the practice of law, and (though I wouldn't put huge stock in this) everyone in my family has said that I should be a lawyer since I was 4. I just had a natural knack for reasoning and analysis, but that's probably common of people on PF as it is.
Lawyers can and do work as adjunct professors both in law and in other disciplines. It largely would depend on the other things like who you worked for and in what areas as to what doors might be opened. I am of the opinion that History professorships are very hard to get and maintain unless you go to small/community colleges because of the publish or perish system. Just pick a job to pursue and pursue it. No matter where you end up, work is going to be work. You will still be able to satisfy your other curiosities in addition to your work, formally or informally. I don't really believe that dream jobs do exist for people who have multiple interests.
I don't think there are such statistics. Everybody wants to go to med school or law school so those schools usually don't have much trouble filling their openings and they can say only one applicant in five are admitted. When I was in school, the graduate English school was the toughest school on campus to get into, and Other graduate programs fight for students, many times because their departments are on the chopping block for lack of students. It's funny to watch requirements go up and down based on supply and demand, but I don't know anybody who hasn't gotten into grad school who has wanted to get in. Gotta remember, they'll ALWAYS take your money.
Yeah, med and law school stats are readily available. The thing that ticks me off the most is seeing stats for the entering class vs. the portion of the entering class that are minorities. A white student with a 3.0-3.2gpa and a 30-32MCAT has a 30.3% chance of acceptance, vs. a black student with the same scores who has a 74.4% acceptance. It just irks me that schools are racist and sexist in their admission policies.
They are also changing the requirements for admission all the time so they become a moving target. Just for example, the MCAT has been changed so that it favors liberal arts students. More liberal arts students are getting into med school now than chemistry or biology students. And that's nationally, not just in my area. Who knows what they want? Just keep in mind that the process has lost most of its objectivity and you will probably be surprised by what program you get into. To that point, Bush43 didn't have the grades or scores to get into the UofTexas law school but he was able to get into the Yale MBA program.
I have also seriously considered a PHD. I would extend my MA research into a PHD dissertation. However, the biggest problem with that is it is a lot of school, and such little pay off. You are right that the pay isn't something to sneer at, only if you mean tenure track or tenured professors. The head of my department for my MA bought a million dollar brownstone in Greenwich Village while I was in the program. So if you get a high level position at a top level university, you will make a very nice living. The problem is that getting one of those jobs is INSANELY difficult. You will need to be published for that to happen. So in the meantime you will be working as an adjunct or assistant professor. Adjunct pay is unimaginably low. At the top end of the scale you will be making 20-30k a year. So if you are already in your late 20s, you will spend much of your 30s living in destitution. Even if you find an assistant professors position, the pay is only marginally better, and it of course depends on the school again. If you work at a small private or public school, adjuncts can make as little 10k a year. Assistant professors only 25-30k. It is pretty rough. Again, it can lead to a place where you are making 6 figures in the right position at the right school, but it would be far down the road.
That is a good point. Why did you choose not to practice law? Or did you practice law and you stopped doing so? If so, why? As I told Troianii I am very hesitant to accrue so much debt, so if I am going to, I want input from as many people as possible before I do.
As much as where you go, if not more so, you should focus on field if you're concerned about money. Just as an example, I know the typical starting salary for a first year lawyer in Maine is around 50-60k, but for first year real estate lawyers its around 75-90k. So I'd say pay closer attention to the areas of law if you're worried about money, but Johnny will probably be able to provide more insight than me.
I had to get a job while studying for the bar, fell into fishing and started a business around it. By the time I passed the bar I had employees to think about, and enjoyed my lifestyle more then that of the attorneys I went to school with. I got a pretty sweet gig. I complain a lot but I set my own hours wear sandals to work and all that. The law will always be there if I decide to sell. Being a lawyer means lots of office work and working on a phone. I don't like either really. If that is for you though go for it.
Everyone in law school has big plans for what type of law they will practice. Every lawyer I know practices in the field they landed their first job in. Just don't think you will be able to be a constitutional lawyer. There are like 5 a year who get chosen for that track. They all make good money 3 years out. Do something you like. The lawyers I know who are happiest do transactional work. Real estate, trusts etc... The lawyers I know with the most cash do trial work on contingency.
Chin up. Your grades in law schools are based on rank. The more they let in with lower grades for political reasons now, the higher your grades will be later as those kids remain at the bottom of the class.
Tell me more about how you got that job, it sounds wicked. Last year I tried to look for a job lobstering in Maine, but couldn't find any listings. I found out that because of the fishing laws in Maine they usually keep it in house
I am also in a closed fishery and that is the case. I got in on a few species before regulation then bought out a guy who was in the business whose wife didnt want him diving anymore. I do shellfish mostly.
As you know I am very much a lefty, so I wouldn't want to do something like corporate law. I would be more interested in personal injury law or criminal law. Speaking of which, that is another thing that you should consider is your own political leanings. Make sure you go to a school that you will feel comfortable on that front. My masters program for example is very much tilted in one direction. There were a few libertarian leaning people in the program, but no conservatives. At least not as far as foreign policy interests are concerned. So the libertarians fit into my school, because they were all opposed to American foreign policy in the Middle East. However, a person who strongly supported a hawkish foreign policy towards the Middle East would have been ganged up on and would feel uncomfortable. It is (*)(*)(*)(*)ty but true. You would not have your grades affected, but it would certainly impact the difficulty. So if you are interested in the history path, you should choose to work with a professor and at a school where you would not feel out of place.
Thanks. That's encouraging. I'm sure I'll get into law school, just not that it'll be one I can be a snob about. I'm mostly worried about getting in because, while big bucks are nice, I don't anticipate my school debt to beore than the average starting salary for lawyers in the state I study in. To what you said earlier, I have always thought I'd prefer stuff like real estate. I wouldn't want the kind of baggage that seems to come with trial cases.
