Fundamentalist religious beliefs are acceptable in some communities. For example, in my city, the community at large has no problems with them. That is the problem with using community standards as a basis. Communities differ. The fundamentalist camps are acceptable with some communities. In terms of religion, like anything else, if a child isn't exposed to them as a child, more than likely they will never develop them. The same goes for reading, mathematics, proper eating habits, work ethic, manners, etc. I can't imagine that you would recommend that people wait until kids are adults to teach them any of the others. Why should religion, which many of us think to be vitally important to our children, be neglected until adulthood? It's just a thought that anti-religious people foment. Personally, I found the ideas that those camps foment to be repugnant. That said, a government that could stop those kinds of things would be too repressive. I'd rather allow a few kids to be warped by those ideas than all of the kids to live in a repressive state that could suppress such ideas. . Do you honestly believe that, for example, Thailand (land of child prostitutes) treats that treaty as law? Do you honestly believe that Saudi Arabia does? (for the Saudi example: ) The Saudi government doesn't give the below to adults, much less children. In terms of your claims that I view children as property, I totally disagree. My kids are my legacy. My job is to make them better people, both for themselves and for the world as a whole. I don't have that responsibility towards my property. However, to do that job, I do have authority over my children, and can enforce standards of behavior on them. I can require them to do things that they don't care to do, at this time. As they get older, I have less authority over them, naturally.
The problem with this is that don't you think that, like those other activities you listed, religion is something your children mindlessly do out of habit, because that's what they're "supposed to do"? I'll leave my kids plenty of room to think, reason, and come to their own conclusion. They'll have access to the Bible, Qu'ran, and other religious writings I keep on my shelf, and well as atheist writings. They will be able to read any or none at their leisure and I'll try and be as objective as possible when answering their questions. But don't you find it telling that humans naturally tend to not believe in religion without being provoked into it? Is that a sign that it's really enlightening or people just follow it for social reasons?
I'm not sure I understand what you wrote in the above. It was very convoluted. I think religion is in the same category as manners, work ethic, reading, mathematics, and nutrition. It is important for growing minds to be exposed to it. And that is your right. I, personally, don't agree with that view. I think religion (in my particular faith) is a good thing, and has enhanced my life. Why wouldn't I share it with my kids? No, it's like most other things, it has to be taught. Humans are blank slates. They need to be taught to read, to eat, to work, and how to get along with other people. I think religion is an important part of human socialization. Also, it's not a permanent thing. Most atheist/agnostics I know were raised with religion.
I don't find it telling. Fear is the dominant emotion and what religion sells is relief from fear. Fear of death is the major one but they promise to fix everything. The sad thing is to be successful, religions have to terrify you first and then relieve the fear that they've created.
Don't you think that by indoctrinating them you keep them from having their own true faith, and instead yours? All of the serious Christians I know went through a serious period of doubt. If they were raised religiously they broke away from it and then came back to it sincerely. All of the fake Christians I know are people who were raised that way, never really questioned it, never really follow it that well, act like hypocrites, then stare with their mouth hanging open if you tell them you aren't a Christian. They step back, like you're diseased. All the while, you know more about the Bible than they ever will. It's ridiculous. I would rather my children be faithless in their childhood years and develop their own strong conviction born of personal interest and commitment rather than instill mindless "going through the motion" drills that they follow as a social convention rather than an act of faith. Religion is not on par with dental hygiene or mathematics. You don't need to "build the habit". You need to be mindful of it, not ignorant. What you're proposing puts your kids on weak philosophical grounds, where religion is a coat they wear out of societal pressure and not true personal conviction.
Socialist or conservative camps are not the issue here. We are talking about an extreme, these jesus camps are creating unstable kids, who believe talking in tongues (jibberish) is normal, that unless they comply with a set of rules they will burn in hell for all eternity. Mother of god, this is child abuse! Worse still, it's child abuse for money, as these camps are there for financial gain.
Regardless, it's a good foundation for faith. If they choose another faith, so be it. My experiences differ. I had a period of questioning, but never stopped having faith. My experiences differ. I am Catholic, which may make that difference. I disagree. I think years of "going through the motion" can lead to a true faith. It did with me. Yes, I had many years where what I did was mechanical. However, that led to a true faith as I matured. I disagree. I think it is on that same level as any other mental habit. The discipline of daily prayer and weekly services, etc., is a good mental habit.
Please show evidence (other than your fervid imagination) that unstable kids are being produced by these camps. As I said, the camps aren't to my taste, but I don't think that means they should be tarred and feathered as being harmful. Also, this whole thread is dated. The camp closed down in 2006, and wasn't actually a full time summer camp, but rather was a 3 day camp event. http://kidsinministry.org//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=138
Whether that particular camp closed or not is irrelevant to this discussion. And the children interviewed in the documentary certainly appeared unstable. How many 8 or 10 year olds of your acquaintance 'speak in tongues'? Religious mania, and ritualistic gibberish, are not characteristics of stable and psychologically balanced young children. The subject I raised concerned the concept of religious indoctrination in general - the Jesus Camp documentary was simply an extreme example thereof. I am canvassing opinions as to whether religious indoctrination of young children is something to be concerned about.
Religious indoctrination of young children is the right of their parents. Yes, these people are extreme, and yes, I don't agree with them. However, they have the fundamental right to raise their children in the manner they see fit.
I do not believe that religious indoctrination is the right of parents - legally or morally. Show me the act which enshrines that right. That traditionally society has allowed parents to treat their children as property, to be dealt with and moulded as they see fit; does not justify that morally. I repeat - parents have responsibilities towards their children; they enjoy no rights over them.
Well, the course of human history disagrees with your view. Parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit. It is human nature (and for that matter, animal nature). Creatures are allowed to raise their children as they see fit. It is part of natural selection. We who raise children are biologically inspired to produce the best children we can. Those of us who are religious believe that part of producing good children is to transfer our religious beliefs to them. After all, we think those beliefs are good to us, why wouldn't we be allowed to transfer them to our children? It is just like we teach a kid to behave politely, academic skills, etc. We do it for the betterment of our children. Of course it does. Yes, and part of my responsibility is to produce good human beings. IMHO, the best way to produce good human beings is to transfer religious traditions to them. In other words, I don't have rights over my children. My rights are against the government interfering with my responsibilities of raising my children.
Well said. Too many parents are forfeiting their parental rights to the government and look at the mess we're in with that.
They are generaly the same in their goals. Make money and make work easy for the adults. Also, it is always good to have religious youth groups in your community. That way you know where the pedophiles hang out and can avoid them. Same with schools, they attract pedophiles teachers, and if you have youth, it is always good to steer clear from institutions that attract pedophiles, dumb down your kids, and sexually molest them in gods name. Private schools are better because they do not have their own court and law systems to protect the pedophiles. They will call the police on sex molesters and let the criminal legal system handle it. Public schools on the other hand will "look into it", and do their thing to please the union lawyer by transfering the offender, and protecting their image.
I was sent to one of the most famous and expensive private boarding schools in the world. I was sexually molested by two people during that time (nothing too serious, but it caused enough stress for me to change schools). Private schools are no insurance against child molestation. Catholic institutions appear to be the worst in this respect. All private schools will attempt to protect their reputation, as there is often quite a bit of money involved.
Sorry, Seems like you come to grips with your ordeal and are doing well as an adult. Too bad crap like that happens. But as long as there are places where children need to go, it will always attract the molestors. Same can be said for foster homes, boy scouts, college football (at Penn St), yout groups, all religion groups, etc. Fact is child molestation is part of the Culture everywere in the world, it has been and will continue to be a problem. But knowing where those pedophiles are, or where they hang out. Is a red flag for the potential for sexual molestation. I mean no offense, as evident by your cat picture, you must be a very sensitive person.
Thanks, but maybe that remains to be seen. I have just turned 18, and have also just finished high school this year. So I have not spent enough time as an adult to know whether I am doing well or not. And it wasn't really an ordeal, just a bit stressful and worrying. I guess you are right, but I just don't understand why that is so. Like who would be turned on by spotty teens, let alone young kids? And if people know that paedos hang out in such places, why are there not measures in place to stop them? For instance, why are scout masters and religious guys, etc. allowed to go away alone with boys? Why cannot there be about three of them, so they are never alone with the kids? LOL, I assume that is a joke.
Are these evangelical christian youth camps a concern....only if they are teaching the kids something else other than the truth of the Gospels. Do you think these camps are any more of a concern than the socialist youth camps in Europe? Our socialist youth camps in this country are called public school.
As you get more adult years under your belt, and understand politics, religion, psychology, and culture, you will know that these types of environments attract the same kind of people. And their goal is to dumb down people while showing off their power over others. You will esperience that most of these men do not have the ability or intelligence to command their power of other adults, as a result, they command young boys to compensate for their lack of power. Mot all of them, but most of them. In most cases, these adult men, have no power in their real lives: their wives run them, their job is humiliating, and their entire life was about being a bottom. Then when they become adults they seek out positions of authority. Because they were breed to not question authority. And when they get in to power over others, they take advantage of it. Much like politicians.
