Bringing A Knife To A Gunfight Is A Good Way To Lose

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Well Bonded, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Failing to follow a officers orders is dumb enough, but turning around while at gunpoint and trying to slash him, not too bright.

    Play stupid games earn stupid prizes.

    Just gotta love those bodycams, which is why I bought one. ;-)

     
  2. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe he thought the cop didn't see him. He was wearing camouflage!
     
    Capt Nice and Well Bonded like this.
  3. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    I used to collect what I referred to as ‘Stupid Criminal’ stories... amazing stories, some the defy rational thinking. One on-going joke as the missing criminal state ‘being stupid’, the charge that should be added during some arrests.

    That said, any class of weapon can defeat any other given the right tactics, situation and opportunity. A gun is no guarantee.
    As most are probably aware, lots tests have been done on knife vs gun attack scenarios where someone armed with a knife win against a knife... the oft repeated 21’ rule, but that like everything doesn’t give the full picture of multiple possibilities; for instance in such a scenario as this video, a knife wielding attacker might reach and manage to stab the one with a gun, but unlike guns, knives work primarily to disable through causing sufficient blood loss or cuts that disable limbs to disable for follow up attacks where guns are more likely, depending on terminal ballistic potential and shot displacement, if disrupting the central nervous system, can instantly stop an attack. Even though a knife wielding attacker manages to stab someone with a gun, the seconds it can take for sufficient disabling loss of blood is opportunity enough for getting a off an effective fatal shot.
    The picture many have of someone attacking with a knife, and even by many wielding knives, is the Hollywood depiction of the attacker visibly displaying a knife and attacking in a choreographed manner. That sometimes happens, however someone who is proficient with a knife understands to be most effective, a knife is used as an ambush weapon, never showing the knife until the strike...many victims never see ‘it’ coming. A real attack, by someone understanding how to use a knife, is more like what you might see in a prison shiv attack. It comes from nowhere, lots of rapid strikes.
    The office in the video did several things correctly. He kept his distance even as he followed, if you look closely he maintains trigger discipline until he shoots, uses the radio to inform others he has someone under gun point, is watching the suspects hands (obvious from the conversation), even when the knife is produced at the suspect’s side he doesn’t shoot until the suspect lunges, he shoots at the instant the threat becomes critical to his safety. It was, in my estimated an extremely dangerous scenario for the cop... though he stopped the threat quickly, given the distance, there was no guarantee he wouldn’t have been stabbed even after shooting the suspect. The video shows how quickly a life or death situation can escalate and the split second in which a decision... one recorded for all to see... must be made. No consider, if the suspect had only a cellphone in his hand would you have shot? It could have been a small handgun. When did the cops adrenaline spike?
    Given we have no idea why the cop was on the scene, why he was alone in the confrontation... which could have been anything, including the potential of responding to a scenario giving the cop reason to believe there was justification to pull his weapon, once he did what were the cop’s alternatives with a suspect refusing to cooperate and having his hand concealed? Let him go.... and, potentially injure someone else? Shoot the knife from the suspect’s hand?
    When young I carried a knife in Belfast... I was in two knife fights before age 10 (Have scars from the near 100 stitches that resulted) and eventually was trained by a fellow that himself was trained by W.Fairbairn in WWII. Years ago, in the US when I was training in the two styles of unarmed martial arts I. studied, I had ‘experts’ that taught how to disarm someone with a knife. Their techniques were always choreographed. When I would comment that ‘that’s not going to work against a real knife’ I’d be invited to play the knife attacker by an instructor confident in mastery over me. More than once I would oblige, and as a prelude to a sparing demo, would start by explaining my views, usually standing next to the instructor (a distraction setting the stage for ambush) and in the midst of my explanation, while maneuvering subtlety next to the instructor, and before it was expected we’d take out positions, I attack without warning, mid-talk. I’d then say...that’s how a real attack happens.
    Then in the 90’s while conducting some of the force on force training were some of those participating were police officers heard me talk about how knifes could be used, I was invited to do talks to officers about the dangers of knife attacks and how to defend against them. In these talks, I’d often start a talk, by, during my being introduced, simulating an ambush style attack with a rubber knife on the nearest officer without warning, before the introduction was over.
    Part of my training of officers at the time sometimes consisted in having officers attempt to hand cuff me, in my mind an extremely dangerous proposition for a single officer, even given some of the modern methods taught. Compound the dangers of a knife, with the potential of a suspect having a small revolver, like one of the NA .22 short, LR, or even ,22mag pistols that can be easily concealed entirely from view in an upraised hand. Two basic things that can save your life... distance and seeing both sides of someone’s hands, coupled with backup, coordination, and good partner communication to start.
    Btw, some vests are resistant to knives, particularly slashing attacks, but can be vulnerable to penetration by some blade profiles in stabbing attacks... but then a couple of the most vulnerable parts of the body, rarely covered by body armor... the eyes, neck, armpit, inside the legs, and ham string to name a few.
    As in the video, an attack with a knife has deadly potential, but also consider, one by someone who is knowledgeable with knives you won’t see coming... but also consider, some one approaching you with a knife while you have a gun may not just be stupid....it’s an irrational thing... they might be off the rails.
     
  4. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You make good points. What many people fail to factor in is reaction time- the length of time it takes to recognize an action and respond, even if just to pull the trigger. The attacker doesn't have to worry about that, the person being attacked and needing to react does- and a person with a knife or other weapon can suddenly close a gap very quickly. The 21' rule minimum assumes a holstered gun. The neurological minimum response to any action is going to be around 1/4 second, so even if a gun is in hand and ready to fire, being too close can be a fatal mistake. Cop did the right things, alright.
     
  5. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    Stupid is as stupid does. Even after being shot the dude still seemed to have a hard time making the right decision.
     

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