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Can we have a civil, thoughtful discussion on this?

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by Kode, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    You don't post facts. You post personal opinions and try to pass them off as "facts". That is why I stopped replying to you.
     
  2. Econ4Every1

    Econ4Every1 Member

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    Same.
     
  3. AlNewman

    AlNewman Active Member

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    Facts, I haven't seen any actual facts from either of you, slanted views would be more like it. And I care less at whether you respond or not. I do not even care if you read my responses. That would be like talking to a brick wall and expecting a response much less an intelligent response.Maybe that is why neither of you has ever rebutted any challenge to your bull.

    Actually to what responses you do provide this could be one and the same person using different accounts, two peas of a pod. But slamming your little antics amuses me, so what do I care what you think which is being overly optimistic of your demeanor.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  4. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Well-Known Member

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    That has nothing to do with why I said it- I stated it as a matter of record to establish the fact it is 100+ years old, and there inst really anything new or modern about it. After all, I am an anarchist- you don't think I've been told this myself, then you're insane.

    Then you really do not understand MMT. The ability to enforce tax via violence has nothing to do with what I stated. After all, many MMT theorists propose that taxation can and will approach zero. My actual statement was "If you boil it down, all it means is that the military is what backs the dollar." and that has nothing to do with taxation. Taxation is enforced via police.

    ...which is why every society in history that employed fiat currencies have failed?

    We were still on the gold standard at that time, you understand this- right?


    No, no, no. It is not factual, it is theoretical. MMT is a theory.

    This leads me to my favorite saying about economic theory:

    "If you take all the economist in the world and line them up end to end, they will all point in a different direction!"
     
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  5. AlNewman

    AlNewman Active Member

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    That is actually only half true. That most socialist of socialists Franklin Delano Roosevelt made it illegal for any American citizen to own gold. All gold had to be turned in and gold certificates in circulation where no better than the Federal Reserve Notes that replaced them. The true part was that foreign central banks could redeem US dollars for gold at $35 an ounce up until Nixon stopped this in August of 1971 because of a looming gold run. I think perhaps this run would confirm that there is no more gold to be had such as when Germany wanted theirs back.
     
  6. a better world

    a better world Member

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    Agreed, provided that we recognise the desired benefits from the point of view of the individual may not always coincide with the best outcomes for the collective.

    I mean non-instinctive, conscious (self aware) choice available only to humans, eg, an agreement by the collective to limit the ability/behaviour (instinctive and/or conscious) of an individual in the group who may be able or may wish to usurp 'unjust' benefits for himself.

    Thus the individuals in the collective can agree to choose to abide by rule of 'man-made' law, (aka rule of law) for the greater good of the individuals that make up the collective.

    OK.

    You are ignoring the reality of privilege and greed of some individuals.
    Good government is not easy, and is always a 'work in progress', but this is no reason to obstruct working for "the greatest good for the greatest number. .

    Collective security facilitates the right to life (a man-made concept) of all individuals.

    Equality of opportunity is another man-made, widely admired concept that you can accomodate through better (co-operation) or worse choices (war).

    .
     
  7. a better world

    a better world Member

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    The individual must interact (including trade) within the collective, in a two-way process (the collective will regulate individual behaviour), which requires 'rule of law' (government) to achieve a balance between individual self interest and collective well being, which do not necessarily align, for maximisation of the common welfare.

    No rule of law = anarchy = perpetual war.

    Anarchist, Political Atheist, Religious Abolitionist, Spiritual Deist, Full Electorate, Member of No Society, and Ever Sui Juris.

    I attempted to define the 'natural law' identified in Spiritual Deism, which I think merely ordains instinctive individual survival above collective well being, and so denigrates the possibility of rule by conscious, man-made law (government) to promote collective well-being, above that which can be achieved in nature (by pure instinct and and/or conscious self interest alone).

    But I see this from wikipedia on anarchy:

    Anarchism is an ideology that promotes a rejection of philosophies, ideologies, institutions, and representatives of authority, in support of liberty. It asserts that cooperation is preferable to competition in promoting social harmony; that cooperation is only authentic when it is voluntary; and that government authority is unnecessary at best, or harmful at worst.[citation needed]

    Wow, there is some unreality in there - an idealised perception of human nature, perhaps.
    Eg, we have patent law for an obvious reason, and even so the disputes over the operation of patent law are legion (caused by greed, jelousy, self-aggrandisement, and a million other very human traits).


    Voluntary co-operation? If only! The UNSC would make its decisions by majority vote, and instantly the world's vast military expenditure would be channelled into education and poverty alleviation. (Actually I believe this will happen one day, by acceptance of rule of international law, on behalf of collective security, rather than 'voluntary co-operation' of individuals, although I wonder if a sufficiently well-educated global citizenry might indeed 'voluntarrily co-operate' to abolish the UNSC veto, which is undeniably the sane course of action.

    [Reminds me of the HG Wells dictum: Civilisation is a race between education and catastrophe]

    Of course government might be oppressive, but that is the challenge for intelligent men - the goal is the correct balance between antagonistic individual and collective interests. (Fancy a world without warranty law, or occupational health and safety labour regulations?)

    As for Spooner, his espousal of the independent capitalist as the behavioural ideal for the individual may have had something to commend it in mid 19th century America, but it is certainly obsolete in a post-industrial global economy.

    [And Constitutions do not need to be signed by everyone, in a representative democracy, as he contended].
     
  8. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Gold is often in the eye of the beholder. ;-)

    “... Last fall, Rob Kirby of Kirby Analytics in Toronto reported that China’s central bank had discovered nearly 6,000 400-ounce gold-plated tungsten bars among those it had recently received from bonded warehouses. It was later learned that at least four counterfeit bars at other locations were found and that all had come from sources within the United States, including Fort Knox, according to the Chinese investigators.

    As suspicions grow about counterfeit bars among those held in bonded warehouses for delivery against either COMEX or London Bullion Market Association contracts or shares of exchange-traded funds, investors could panic. It is believed this could be the reason for the blackout on news coverage in the United States on this story except for AFP. ...” http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/gold_bar_scam_215.html
     
  9. Econ4Every1

    Econ4Every1 Member

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    A couple of things. It makes no difference "what a couple of MMT theorist say" with respect to what MMT as a concept actually describes and more than it matters what the Westborough Baptist Church has to say about Christianity.

    People that understand MMT can be wrong.....

    Having said that. I assure you that, as someone who has spoken to Warren Mosler several times (the person acknowledged to have created MMT as we know it today), no one that understands MMT thinks; "many MMT theorists propose that taxation can and will approach zero.".

    People who are new to MMT have been known to say; "taxes doesn't pay for spending", which is true, but they take that to mean taxes aren't necessary, which is false.

    Taxes don't pay for spending (something that is true) is not the same as saying taxes aren't necessary at all. Can you see the distinction?


    Which is no different than saying every society that there have ever been have failed. That just states the obvious and then commits the fallacy of assuming the conclusion that the reason societies using fiat failed was because of the use of fiat, all while ignoring the fact that every society that has used a commodity system has also failed.

    With all due respect, and I mean that, you continue to expose your ignorance on the topic.

    The "gold standard", a time when you could convert your dollars for gold, ended in 1934. From 1934 to 1970 the amount of money in the economy was "backed by gold" (dollars weren't convertible to gold at this point), but that did not prevent the government from creating all the money it wanted as long as it removed it somewhere else. Which is why the top tax rate in the 1940's was 94%!!!

    I want you to imagine me taking a deep sigh.

    Yes, that is what it's called and it's a stupid name and widely disliked by those that understand it for exactly this reason. People like you, who don't understand anything about MMT will use the "it's just a theory" defense when discussing its alleged shortcomings. There is another branch of MMT called Modern Money Reality. Does the name of the concept really change how you feel about it?

    Yep, economics is hard, except MMT isn't really pointing you in a direction. MMT simply helps you understand where you are, where you are standing so that you can point in a direction and make claims with some understanding.

    If you think the world is flat or that the sun rotates around the earth, you will make poor assumptions based on those ideas.

    MMT proports to tell you that, from an economic point of veiw, you think the sun goes around the earth economically. Ironically, people are responding the same way today as they did when they found out the earth went around the sun.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017 at 11:53 AM
  10. Econ4Every1

    Econ4Every1 Member

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    Please don't feed the self admitted troll....

     
  11. AlNewman

    AlNewman Active Member

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    I asked if you could translate your prior post into cohesive thoughts but I see by your reply that is impossible. But at least you could try and stay on subject, my tag line is not the subject.
     
  12. AlNewman

    AlNewman Active Member

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    And the eye has been proven many times over to be very deceptive.

    Much like the Fed, Fort Knox doesn't seem to qualify for audit. It has always been expected, at least by myself that Fort Knox was only gold plated something. I guess now that something has proven to be tungsten. Would that be the real reason that the incandescent light bulbs where repalced, shortage of tungsten?

    But really, up until August of 1971 these interantional bankers where able to collect the US fiat script with their fiat script and exchange it for real gold at $35 an ounce. American gold is now everywhere but in America.
     
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  13. AlNewman

    AlNewman Active Member

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    It that makes you feel good, good for you. But back in the real world your understanding of the meaning of troll is as cognate as your understanding of "money".

    But please keep posting quotes from fruit cakes and I will keep digging out the fruit for all to see whether you respond or not. Actually just go ahead and turn on block and you won't even be bothered with those pesty little reminders that your post has been exposed for the bull it is.
     
  14. a better world

    a better world Member

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    I like exploring the basis of people's world views. My own view is that maximisation of human potential, and elimination of poverty and war rerquires reform of the IMF and UNSC. (btw I was intrigued to come across the concept of 'voluntary co-operation' in Anarchism).

    Notice how Ndividual (and probably AINewman) is satisfied that "survival is instinctive behaviour" and that therefore government is unnecessary, a view worth repudiating, while exposing to what extent this view is based on pure self-interest - ie, maintaining one's own comfort level in a world of perceived resource scarcity - that only perpetuates terrible global imbalances.

    Arguments over the nature and causes of inflation, etc, that fail to take account of the unitary and interrelated nature of the global system will fail to reveal the most advantageous courses of action.

    BTW, I ofcourse see that MMT is a useful addition to classical economic theory (with all its competing schools); and understanding why AINewman vehemently dismisses it (socialist nonsense etc) is also useful.
     
  15. a better world

    a better world Member

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    .

    But your tag line explains your world view, and hence your views on economics, very much the topic of this thread (see my previous post to Econ4Every1).
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017 at 9:55 PM
  16. Ndividual

    Ndividual Active Member

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    Agreed, as long as we recognize the fact that simply being a member of a species or citizen of a sovereign nation/State or even a small community does NOT make an individual a member of a collective.

    'Unjust'?

    When you throw out the term 'collective', I sense that you seem to equate it to encompass members of a species while I, on the other hand equate it to be more equivalent to a community or small group of people 'working' closely together as a result of their own choice.

    Does that mean you agree?
    "The term 'collective security' to me implies protection of all individuals or groups of individuals from threats or harm by other individuals or groups of individuals."

    No, I accept reality and deal with it accordingly.
    The 'greatest good' for the "greatest number" is probably the best way to explain the eventual collapse of a so called democratic form of government.

    Agreed, as long as you recognize and accept the fact that government(s) role is not to provide but only protect ones right to pursue our rights.

    "Equality of opportunity" is not something that exists naturally, nor can it be made to exist by government. Opportunities arise, and become available when and where they arise. I find it somewhat perplexing that illegal immigrants can travel great distances, and bear much hardship to enter the U.S.A. and find work, yet many American citizens cannot/will not.
     
  17. a better world

    a better world Member

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    .

    Well we diverge here. Of course you are a member of the human race, a species with the potential to eliminate war and poverty among its own kind, unlike other predatory animals.

    Eg, disinclination to contribute to quality universal education (which would go a long way to massively reducing the health bill, since much illness is caused by poor ie uninformed lifestyle choices), given that education is a vital resource which ought be provided by the community to the individual, not 'won' by the individual (on account of having rich parents, or whatever).

    Yes, unjust.

    Hence the Anarchist concept 'voluntary co-operation'. Hmm.

    Security for all, against criminality by criminals. Yes.

    Did you explain how you deal with privilege and greed? Just accept it?

    .

    See my comment about provision of quality universal education, a prerequisite for "protection of ones right to pursue our rights" that can only be guanteed by the community. {Private education only prolongs stratification of community values]

    Of course it can. It's a widely admired concept (we are not talking about equality of outcome), and therefore citizens can agree to implement it to some degree or other, depending on the strength of the particular world view of the populace (and their vision of need versus greed, self-interest, etc)

    The circumstances and abilities of those illegal immigrants, like the circumstances of "many Americans", vary widely.

    Above poverty level jobs are not easy to come by - that's why I promote guaranteed access to participation in the economy, and insist on a system that meets that minimum - 'just' - requirement.

    BTW, the whole immigration/refugee situation results from a failure of the UNSC and the IMF to prevent the manifestation of 'failed states'.

    Trump is taking exactly the wrong course in defunding the UN, and failing to examine the role of the IMF in international and national finance.
     
  18. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    All anarchists should study the experience of the Kronstadt sailors during the Russian revolution.
     
  19. Econ4Every1

    Econ4Every1 Member

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    But you do recognize collectives exist and they will impose their collective ideology upon you.

    What if one of those choices is to create compulsory rules? Why should the cohesion of the collective be broken by the individual? As far as I'm concerned, an individual who grows up in a collective should have but one choice, the choice to leave the collective. Of course, that means that the individual must leave the areas controlled by that collective. As long as you have that choice you have ALL of the freedoms you claim for yourself. Somalia is a place without a central government, you are free to go there and live out your individualist lifestyle, no?

    Why can't you deal with the collectives choice to impose rules on everyone? I mean as long as you have the choice to leave the collective, I'm just not seeing the problem. The collective was there before you, why should it have to adjust to your desires?

    The government's role is whatever is defined by the collective. By definition a government is formed by a collective that agrees to a set of rules. Your ideal collective would enforce fewer rules.

    That's just an appeal to naturalism fallacy....Vaccines don't exist naturally, that doesn't mean that creating them is bad. Things that don't exist naturally can provide us with better outcomes.

    The problem isn't the government, but the greed of individuals driven to hire people who will work for less because they benefit individually.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017 at 10:43 AM
  20. bringiton

    bringiton Member

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    Please explain, in your own words, when and how the bulk of our money is created, by whom, and when and how it is destroyed. Thank you.
     

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