Christians, what are you afraid of?

So how many versions of the Bible do I need to read to get the complete Godly word ? and in this case we have conflicting words - so which to pick.

Not sure why you are trying to swallow a camel - but clearly you did not understand the issue being pointed out - at least not very well as per your attempts to minimize and deflect.

but those are just the surface problems with the different versions of the same passage -

When you did deeper - you find that there was an an intent to hide the original meaning .. which is why you get such ridiculous statements as "reduced to a loaf of bread" which make little sense in context - while the other version - the real version makes a whole lot of sense in context.

When you dig deeper - you find this happens often - and especially with the KJV which was an exceptionally bad translation when certain topics are being broached .. such as things having to do with sex or with other divinities.

When the original text was in conflict with modern dogma - the transcribers too - "liberties" shall we say - or used "artistic license" - trying to put it nicely rather than outright pious fraud - to distinguish between some cases which are small and others which are really bad.

So don't be so hard on yourself for taking comfort in the "wife of bath" - you will not be reduced to a loaf of bread.

Flaming gibberish for the most part as was lacking in substantiation but like where you are going with the - "When one understands the reality of heaven" comment.

First - This is not about hell - per say - but the use of fear as a sophisticated mind control technique - and now back to heaven - sans the "we just can't comprehend" nonsense.

What can we not comprehend ? and why does it matter and - this comment adds nothing - other than generally it is used to apologize for odd things that the God of Moses does.

The reality of heaven is not that we can not comprehend - the reality is that we have no idea what heaven is - or isn't.

What is true however, is that one's perception of Heaven affects how they act here on earth.

So tell me your story - how you have heaven figured out - what goes on there. My story is quite detailed.

 

I own several versions. I also have a Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew text. I do not particularly like expanded Versions, but I believe God speaks to us through most all of them. It is the Spirit, not the letter of the law. Don't expect you to understand it. You most likely dismiss it.

I agree that "hell" is used as a sales com'on by many. That is a misuse....but it is there. Perhaps you just don't like that fact and why you are so intent on disproving the Gospel.

Through reading the Word and delving into it's intent,I understand that it, in itself is a miracle with more profound meaning within it's content than any other writing. The details are in an introspective examination of that Word and what has been revealed in my life. I find an openness and honesty with those that pursue the true knowledge of God. I will not have heaven figured out until I get there. Nor do I have a dimension figured out other than two dimensions and the one I now live in.However, I have a real glimpse from my personal relationship with Jesus as well as what is written in His Word.
I have read other books beside my Bible about heaven and never have I been really impressed. All they do is expound with their own imagination as to what the Bible says. Recently, I have been reading a book where the author has done a compilation of Near Death Experiences. He has studied thousands of different faiths and cultures from all over the world. There is always a very common thread in those stories and I find it fascinating. For instance, how does a blind person who has had a dysfunctional optic nerve since birth, come back from that experience and describe many different shades of light? (They have no idea what color is) I don't expect you to show any interest but I know others might..and I find it worth looking into.
The book is "Imagine Heaven" by John Burke

 

Hmmm - kind of missed the mark here. I wanted to know your version of Heaven - what you think happens there. For example - when you arrive through the pearly gates - is there a special ceremony ? - will you greeted by your past friends and family ?

I had a ND experience .

 

So the "pearly gates' is how you mock? My version of heaven is what I glean from the Bible. In the book I mentioned, I found nothing contradictory to that. I have been unconscious but my soul has never left my body so no first hand experience here.I do seem to sense we are given a perhaps translucent body with complete feeling in all our appendages until we are restored to a New Earth. I have visions of low level flying and that is what a lot of NDE's experience. They all seem to indicate, however, that is just the beginning of a "journey". Some experiences , however seem to be horrific. I want to hear about your experience if it is honest....no sarcasm.

 

And you claim to have gotten this out of the Bible?

 

Everyone dismisses parts of it. That's by necessity because some parts conflict with others. That leaves the believers, as you say, being "guided by the holy spirit". And of course that leaves different believers in completely different directions. So either this holy spirit is leading you all to different places purposefully, and enjoys the resulting conflict, or something else is going on here.

 

You tell me I'm wrong then go one with telling me how Christians who don't believe what you believe aren't Christians.

And fail to see the irony of your comment.

 

Seems 2000 years of conversion at the point of a sword escaped your notice. Not surprising since history does, in fact, confirm my thesis.

 

You show absolutely no understanding of faith and no knowledge of Buddhist philosophy.

 

If reality includes some old guy in a toga with a beard floating around on a cloud then, yeah, those people are not grounded in reality.

 

I did not mock your vision at all ? You have yet to give a vision - what could there be for me to mock ?

I have read the Bible - and there is not much to be gleaned - bits and pieces - and which section ? Do we include Revelations - and if so what significance in any case .. not much there either -

Take two people who have read the Bible - and you will have two different stories .. which why I asked - and was wondering what your version was.

From my NDE - can't tell you that much either - but a little perhaps - .. not sure how to explain how it effects my vision .. other then there were at least two presences encountered .. one guiding to the ?? who knows what ... the Most High I would suppose - what ever name you wish to give that fellow - but you did not really see him/ "it" . nor was there much of anything other than the question - do you want to stay here .. or go back.

The Bible - where to begin .and again that nasty question .. what version ?.

In my version deut 32:43 - the numerous sons of God are hanging out with the most high .. up there in heaven - El being the God of Abraham .. When dividing up the peoples of the earth among his 70 odd "Sons of God" - YHWH's portion was the people of Israel/Jacob

From the NT - you have to go through judgement - not much about when you get through.

So - the question I am after - as are all humans that I know - is what happens once you arrive ?

I can go first if you like.

 

I'm also a former Christian, dadoalex, though I lasted until I was 21. Then again, most weeks we only went to Mass-- i.e., I was Catholic-- one time.

I wanted to make it clear that my forthcoming comment has nothing to do with any personal objection I would have to your following your own path. In fact, if one considers how unique we each are, even physiologically, & how many divergences in perspective exist between any two Democrats, or two Republicans, it should be apparent that most people also have an individualized relationship w/ the Divine, with our existence.

But my comment is that your roots are showing. That is, because I'm guessing you would want to avoid falling into a pattern similar to that for which you feel such disdain, I wanted to point out that your browbeating of Polydectes, above, is beginning to take on a judgemental tone, beyond a merely forensic one. It feels, to me, like you are on the edge of belittling another's beliefs with the intent of elevating, perhaps even promoting, your own. Just a friendly head's-up.

In answer to your thread's initial question, however, I will pass along a perspective of some Christians, at least, which came as news to me. Some believe that they are RESPONSIBLE for others' spiritual welfare. The way this manifested in the co-worker from whom I learned this, was that he felt that the acts of sinners, dragged down his own chances at salvation. Like I said earlier, this world's made up of all kinds of people.

 

No I did not. I referenced a book earlier about others testimonies. I do know Jesus had perhaps a translucent Body when he first appeared to the women. He told them not to touch Him because he had not yet ascended. Then when he appeared to Thomas and the disciple he challenged Thomas to put his hand in his wounds so he would believe. So from that, in my opinion we have a soul body until we are given a new body. Don't believe me, believe the Bible. I am just a man.....no more no less.(From the movie Braveheart)

 

I wholeheartedly disagree. Some read the Bible in order to find argument. Some....to prove they are superior. Some with an honest intent to know God.

 

Please outline when I said you were wrong. I would say that those that don't accept the teachings of Jesus are not Christian regardless of a denomination or Church or Country they belong to. Only God has the final say.

 

So Jesus advocates death by sword? I didn't hear that teaching. Maybe you have history wrong or you don't know the difference of those using "Religion for power" and those that adhere to His teachings.

 

See, you are mocking and have no desire to know because you know it all.

 

I'm going to say one thing that you can dismiss or ponder for yourself. Two thieves on crosses next to Jesus. As far as we know, they never did anything to deserve heaven. One of them mocked as many on this thread have done. The other thief turned and asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom.... (He believed) Jesus gave us all a description of what we can expect when we trust Him. He said "Surely to day I will see you in Paradise". Either you believe or you don't. It's not on me at all.

 

I don't believe you, I believe the Bible, and the Bible does not agree with you. Jesus told the women to not prod him because he was in fact there. And the reason people could see him was because it was indeed his body, he had the wounds to prove it. What the hell is a "soul body"?

 

Not sure why do not want to discuss this - but no worries - not a topic for everyone.

 

You don’t think that there are honest seekers of God who reach differing interpretations of who God is and/or what God wants? You think those who differ from your own understanding must be dishonest? Or did I read you wrong?

Do you believe the Bible to have no contradictions and to be entirely internally consistent? Do you see it as strait forward or as a bit of a puzzle? If the latter, why do you think God would set it up to be so?

 

That wasn’t necessarily mocking. Some people DO believe what he said. Clearly that doesn’t include you, since you consider it mocking you to attach you to that vision of heaven.

 

Two issues I have with this:

1. I don’t think we can all decide what we believe to be true. Some may have such powers of self delusion, but I think most of us believe whatever makes the most sense to us. I can not believe things that I find unbelievable. I can’t believe in Gods any more than I can believe in ghosts, regardless of how hard I may try.

2. That belief matters so much to this religious mindset bothers me. Faith over works seems to me to be completely backwards; that a repentant convert to Christianity Hitler could be thought worthy of heaven but Ghandi, because he was Hindu, definitely worthy of hell.

 

Methinks thou doth project too much.

 

With respect, I've not tried to recruit any into my beliefs in any way much less through threat or intimidation. You won't find a Buddhist monk at the head of any army marching with the command to convert or die.

I believe something that no Christian ( or other monothiest for that matter ) dares believe.

That people have an inherent right to practice to whatever belief they choose. But people do not have the right to make that choice for others.