Conservatives Answer This; Which Costs More?

Ok, that "'d" on the end of the "we" stands for "would".

If we took away all forms of welfare we WOULD have to spend more on crime than we did on welfare.

what's with this forum and taking out of context?

 

lol

Look at the Cold War. Nukes change things.

 

One is absolutely necessary for the survival of the country . The other just creates millions of leeches and eventually, generations of non productive parasites. No military and we're toast. The world is actually toast without US keeping other powers in check. If we were smarter about it, we'd force countries to PAY for our protection. But there's a reason we're the most benevolent and most generous country on the planet. Our military could certainly get cut though, mostly removed from countries that don't need us. Most of EU, S. Korea, Japan, especially.

 

If you took away welfare, people would have to get jobs. Fortunately, the democrat cities and states have minimum wage laws of 15 an hour so they can move and earn a living wage.

Why, I bet you could get states like Texas to give free bus rides to San Francisco, We'll call it "The Living Wage Express". All you gotta do is prove you don't have a job and you've got yourself a ticket.

 

Why do you think they brought in welfare back in the day in Wales?

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It's too early to say that.

 

Why does it have to be either-or? Lack of one won't lead to the other.

 

I thought Germany lost thar war maybe I am wrong.

 

Ww1? Yes, no thanks to America. You got thumped.

 

Seventy years is clearly too early.

 

I find it interesting when you are say what the USA do you use an inclusive word like we and now in this post you say you. I see you are in Australia are you USA working there or a citizen? And fact is if the USA for what ever reason would have chosen to take the German side in WW1 they would have won. You can think what ever you want but the United States military had a huge hand in the winning of WW1. Which more than can be said of the sitting on the sidelines Australians.

 

Are you implying we lost WW1? LOL The US was fighting on 2 fronts too. Does Australia actually teach any real history? LOL

 

America got thumped by the germans in ww1.

 

Amen. Indeed!

 

I can assure you, Australia did far more in ww1 than America. You do realize, us Western countries don't even get taught of your involvement in ww1? Because it was insignificant. Nz lost about a 10th of its population or something. The cost to our country's was catastrophic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

Australia lost 1.32% of our population. America lost 0.13%

I often say "we" when talking about these terror wars because we are all guilty, but in ww1 Australia was more "we" with Britain. We've only been we with the US since ww2 because you conquered and occupied us in that war when we were too busy fighting Germans and Japs.

 

To the best of my knowledge Obama didn't cut taxes on the rich in an effort to create jobs which is what I was referring to. If he did then he's wrong too. My understanding is that he cut taxes for the middle class which, as you have said, seems like a helpful idea, but I don't see it having enough impact to make a difference. Also with our debt the way it is, cutting taxes in general is a bad idea. What the middle class really needs is for wage stagnation to end, but short of mandating pay levels via government (which I'd be very much against) I don't see a way for that to happen. Instead prices will continue to go up, wages will continue to stay the same or lower, dependency on welfare will rise. This is going to be compounded with a massive loss of service jobs as automation kicks in. The automatic semi will replace truckers and local drivers, hell cabbies will likely go away to due to it (I believe that's Ubers master plan anyway), along with fast food employees and who knows how much else. Once it's cheaper to stock shelves robotically goodbye backroom workers and warehouse workers. Automated farming will be good though.

Anyway point is that cutting taxes isn't a great idea right now, and unfortunately we're going to end up with people dependent on welfare in the next 25 years because we won't have the jobs for the people. Knowing humanity, it's going to turn out really bad, not like StarTrek which should be the goal (full automation of needs, no money, do what you want, pursuit of education is valued). I know it's getting off topic, but few people seem to want to address the future. Who knows maybe I'm wrong but I don't think I am. Automation is going to change humanity.

 

The invisible hand reallocates to a point. I don't disagree that the market should be left as free as possible but I understand the reason for a minimum wage and for welfare. It's worth remembering that your average person getting welfare is working, that they have kids (who food stamps are really meant for anyway), or are unable to work due to age and/or disability. I'm fine with checking for fraud so long as it saves money, and certainly there needs to be reform to get rid of things such as those pay cliffs where people turn down a raise because they'll make less since they'll lose their welfare.

I see the military as an easy place to cut. We don't need bases all over the world, we sure as hell don't need 7 carriers, and we don't need to go to war with third world hell holes all the time. We have a military built for offense, not defense, and we use it constantly.

 

well Obama did cut taxes for the rich... the billionaires and millionaires made off with most of the cake once he spent trillions to prop up and save the stock market over a few bad companies... most people would have had minimal impact by simply staying in the same index funds their 401k's already had... it was the rich people who lost net worth, and look today, more rich people than ever, directly related to his actions... it boggles me the 99% protesters never seemed to grasp this concept their biggest enemy wasn't the rich people, it was the government who made them whole again while screwing them over in the process... anyhow thats a whole other subject I could go on for hours about...

what I really wanted to touch on was the stagnation of wages... we've had several times in history where this happened... and we've had several solutions... the largest being social security... many people today seem to think it was just to help old people... it wasn't... it was actually intended to help YOUNG people... long ago unemployment had a similar eerie trend to what we see today, people staying in the work force longer, and younger people not being able to get a job... so they came up with social security, to get millions of older people out of the work force, so younger people could enter it since that was a much more costly and troubling issue than old people who will die soon enough so it won't really cost us that much to pay them to leave the work force...

the program worked out great... millions of older people left the work force, instead of working until the day they die... and back then it only took a couple years to die anyhow so the program was pretty cost effective... now people live longer... and we're back in the same boat... people staying in the work force and young people not getting jobs... but we already used up our best bet long ago, and people live too long to lower the age of retirement... so what new gimmick can we pull out of the hat... we need to create a work shortage, what can we do in america to do that... deportation...

its an ugly answer but its the only viable one that is possible despite people saying its not... take a look at north dakota, where starting wages for a walmart employee are $18 an hour... why is walmart of all places willing to pay $18 an hour to get a warm body in the door... they have a severe worker shortage up there with the oil boom... heck you can't even find a house or apartment to rent within a couple hundred miles thats going for twice the national average... supply and demand... so deporting all the illegals, and forcing employers to verify citizenship or face jail time and huge fines, is the only way to create a worker shortage nationwide... cutting off all these special visa candidates they claim our country needs is something that will have to be done as well...

now of course doing this has its own drawbacks... prices on some things will absolutely go up... and we will have shortages of other things as people figure out what wages will get the warm bodies in the door... and things will be uncomfy for us, for made a decade as we jockey around and adjust life in america... but after that we will have finally figured it all out and be charging forward much wealthier and better than we are today... which we will need, because as you pointed out, the generation of automation is just around the corner for the service industry... and I imagine in 10 years, we will HAVE to be in a strong position to figure out what we're going to do as a society moving forward from there... but if we don't create a worker shortage now to adjust wages naturally and look out for the best interest of america before our feelings for others, well, we'll be suffering right with them soon enough...

I don't want to be forced into socialism because we refused to solve the issues today... seems to me the only ones who win by lack of solution are democrats... they'll finally get the "utopia" of socialism so many of them want... and we'll all live lesser lives as a result... innovation and growth will be greatly stunted... and for once, we'll finally see what its like to be european... compare all the new companies coming out of europe to america... you really don't see a lot of new innovative things... make sure to exclude companies that left america for tax reasons and are rehomed under various cheap business tax countries over there... once you do that, there just isn't much reason for people to take risks over there... as evil as some people say greed and money are, it sure creates a lot of amazing things that otherwise people wouldn't have done, or would have taken decades and decades longer to become mainstream...

hurry up and wait...

 

well not to be this way... but do you want a military thats built for defense... because the general practice of that would mean we're defending our own lands, which means the war is at our doorstep... and that would dramatically change life more than 9/11 did... I'd rather have an offensive military that can strike and bring it to their lands than on our own...

I agree we're wasting money in the military and its bloated bases all over the world... they could be scaled back and still offer the same benefits we want them to provide... as well as radically change how we spend money on advancing our technology... but by design military is a waste, he who wastes the most has the most... and when you need it, you want the most... while other countries are able to rely on those countries who have built up massive armies and they play the role of peace makers who take no side and really just through luck of geography are left alone for the most part... its always awesome to be in the middle of a bunch of strong countries than be the one neighboring the border of a nightmare... ya know what I mean...

 

I'm more a libertarian then democrat; believe in generally free markets, people should live how they wish, government should be hands off and provide infrastructure, a neutral court system, necessary laws (preferably at the local level, things like "don't go there, that's an active volcano and you'll die"). The way we work now with our markets, jobs, our general system works well because we need labor to produce. Imagine if we didn't, if labor needs were minimal. In that case we don't need the current system, we need a different one, and that system will by necessity be socialist like, but not via assigned jobs more than resource distribution. In fact we couldn't keep the current system because the job simply won't be there.

I don't see that as bad. I see that as a good thing really, but with a big potential for abuse. The technology is falling into place with robotics to make necessities automated. Automatic farms, automated construction of just about everything, automated movement of goods, I mean we're likely 100 years out but we'll hit a point where most things will be automated and our needs will be met with minimal human influence. At that point it will be on people to do what they like. Assuming no one chokes the resources, I believe you'd have people working and coming up with new things because they want to rather than because they have to. I doubt most doctors are doctors because of the money, people get into robotics because it interests them, hell I'm a software engineer because I've always like to program. My degree was just an expensive piece of paper that got people to take me seriously. Don't mind that my job pays well, but in a world where I didn't have to do anything, I'd still play around with computers because I find it entertaining. I think we'd do fine.

As for deportation that's going to cost money and cause a lot of issues. Enforcement will be a pain, people that have been here since a young age will be deported to countries they don't know at all, weird family issues due to child citizenship will arise. It's also worth noting that a lot of the jobs illegals do are seasonal, and you're not going to get Americans to go out and pick berries for a few months then take the rest of the year off. I think a guest worker program would work better provided that kids would not automatically become citizens. It should also be noted that the raise in prices would further squeeze the poor and middle class as wages wouldn't go up. I believe things would get worse rather than better.

 

For war to come to our doorstep requires resources that currently no other nation has. We have the best natural defense ever; two giant oceans between us and anyone who could possibly fight us. We'd be fine. Yeah, terrorist actions like 9/11 would and will still happen. They've still being happening. That's not a military action though, that's a policing action. You can't fight non-nation states the same way you fight nations.

 

Kinda a stupid comparison. What costs more the inflated presidents salary or inflated fema. What costs more, over-paid social security benefits or over-paid unemployment benefits. Its a question that doesn't make sense.

 

deportation is easy... and insanely it will be self deportation... thats why I mention you force employers to check citizenship status... and penalize them greatly for breaking that law with prison time for the owners... or those doing the hiring... it will dramatically change things when people are held accountable... and you're right people won't want to do seasonal work and pick berries... but thats part of why I say we'll go through some rough times and price increases to get those berries... eventually the people will do the work... I often also find it amazing people say nobody will pick the berries... white americans do it all the time... they pick apples... they tend the livestock... every single day of the year americans who wouldn't do it, are doing it... so I don't buy the stereotype they won't or can't...

I also reject the idea illegals are only doing seasonal farm work... have you ever gone to a construction company, a restaurant, and almost any other industry in this country... illegals are doing all those jobs quite successfully and year round... some are able to cheat the system and use fake identities and not get caught until tax time or often years after not filing taxes under the social security number several people were using... this is where the government could easily track down this fraud and end it immediately... I mean how often does a cook in california also have a job in construction at the same time in michigan... common sense and computers could easily catch much of that fraud... the rest are simply working under the table from people who knowingly hire illegals and hope they don't get caught and when they do its usually a "cease and desist" letter with no legal action... and its very far and few in between who get caught doing this since its so hard unless someone reports... and generally they don't report because they know other illegals working there quite often family members and don't want to rock the boat... simple auditors going around and once again computers could assist in getting many...

why pay to deport someone when you can cut off the lifeline and make them leave on their own accord... I mean 95% of people told to self-deport or report to court for it never bother to show up... so since we're too lazy or unwilling to do it, create the market to do it for you at a far lesser cost... but like I said... most people won't have the stomach... instead they live with the reality of the effect an estimated 30 million people have on our society... and even that number is being disputed as too low now... I mean to think over 10% of our population is illegal, thats insane...

anyhow... like I said... I was offering a solution that would work... instead of the "feel good" patches that ultimately fail... people often don't like what it would really take which is why we have the politicians we do today... great at promising us a better life, horrible at delivering it...

P.S. another great way to force change in the work force by creating a labor shortage... is to start the work programs they used to have 50 years ago... you know how just about the entire parks system was created around this country... they took people who needed jobs, and gave them work, low paying so as to not compete with other jobs... but if you wanted work they would guaranty it and that forced employers to pay more to keep people local and in their workforce... however I know thats not going to help as long as there is a massive wave of illegals willing to fill the backlog, so it won't solve the problem today until we control the illegals and they can't depress wages once we gap the workforce... thats why I hate the idea we have to spend money to solve problems, it doesn't solve them if we're not willing to control illegals and visa programs which allow 1 million people a year to flood our labor market... horrible system...

 

"The US spends seven times more on the military than our closest contender (China) and some 53% of the worlds military spending.

But, you can't cut that. Newp" ~ Because we are an arrogant Country that starts fights and needs that military backup? Or because the Military Industrial Complex is one of the biggest donors to politicians and strong arms war over hiccups?

Do you know that we sell our old military equipment to Countries that might possibly be a threat in the future? Do you know what Capitalism is?

I know, I use to be in your party. The Fear Mongering "I don't want to learn" party. I'm sad for you.

 

Do you mean like that lie of a war in Vietnam that took over 58,000 American lives?

 

^See

Welfare is in the Constitution. Warfare is not.

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The one that the Left sent over "spies" and the Right came charging in and went Pew Pew!.

Yep, just like that. Because there is a difference between CIA intelligence/Diplomacy and chest beating punch in face war propaganda.