Could being Gay be a Religion?

So what?

That doesn't define what a religion is.

 

Well what is says is if your religion is recognized by the state or not. So the state does have a right to define it in that way. Scientology went thru this and had a hard time initially getting tax exempt status.

 

Point out the stipulation in the first amendment that indicates you only have the right to free expression of religion based on whether or not the state or federal government recognizes it as a tax free entity?

Because I am having difficulty understanding why this claim you are making matters.

It has the right to exempt then from taxes, that's it. It has no right to define religion. So you ate still wrong.

So what?

They aren't telling them that they are a religion, they are telling them they don't have to pay taxes.

Does any of this nonsense have anything to do with the point?

 

I believe I said quite clearly that I do not know how what impact the state could have on the rights to a claimed religion other than taxes.

"Actually the government can define religion for certain tax purposes. You can not claim tax exemption just because you watch Monday night football with your friends and consider that a religion. I am uncertain how claiming what you do is a religion would affect other rights you might have but would love to hear from someone who might know. "

To my knowledge I don't believe the issue has ever come up. But If a gay person claimed he was being discriminated from being fired for a job and he claimed this was illegal because being gay was his religion I could see how this might go in court. The attorney might ask where are your services held? Who are the members of your congregation? What are the commonly held beliefs of your religion? I just don't see how SIMPLY being gay would pass muster. Otherwise ANYONE could claim he was being fired for religious purposes.

 

You are wrong, the Government does not define or prove a Religion, that would violate the First Amendment, they do define or prove TAX FRAUD, by means of the IRS tax codes or violations of 501C3 charter regulations, intent to defraud or circumvent provisions thereof for personal gain.
These are criminal prosecutions.

I currently serve on a Church board of directors and have successfully resolved various legal problems.

 

No. Any more than being a woman is a religion or being a frog is a religion. You can have Jew Gays, Christian Gays, Muslim Gays and Atheist gays but the thing they all share is the hatred and abuse of people who would hurt them for no reason other than what they are.

 

When a new church files for tax exempt status it must present documents that show it is a church. This is a fact.

 

Let me make one other point abundantly clear. To suggest that gays need to figure a "work around" to get rights and that they should form a religion to do so is repugnant. They should be given all and any rights based on their sexual orientation. They don't need to get around the law....the law needs to change to recognize them as a protected group worthy of all the rights of other Americans.

 

I am currently on a Church board of directors, the Church is 501C3 State and local Government etc.... an Ordained Minister, I know a little bit about such matters.

 

I quoted the tax code (are you an expert on that too). It is a fact that scientology was denied tax exempt status initially because they could not prove they were a church.

On Oct. 8, 1993, 10,000 cheering Scientologists thronged the Los Angeles Sports Arena to celebrate the most important milestone in the church's recent history: victory in its all-out war against the Internal Revenue Service.

For 25 years, IRS agents had branded Scientology a commercial enterprise and refused to give it the tax exemption granted to churches. The refusals had been upheld in every court. But that night the crowd learned of an astonishing turnaround. The IRS had granted tax exemptions to every Scientology entity in the United States.

"The war is over," David Miscavige, the church's leader, declared to tumultuous applause.

The landmark reversal shocked tax experts and saved the church tens of millions of dollars in taxes. More significantly, the decision was an invaluable public relations tool in Scientology's worldwide campaign for acceptance as a mainstream religion.

 

You are repulsed, many people love their doggy, and are repulsed when it licks it's private parts, then tries to lick your face, Religion has been used to oppress many far too long, it could also be used to help a minority accomplish some internal good.

Perhaps you do not see or understand how this is possible, I do, it is not saying every individual would be a Religion, but that Religion could serve Gay people as protection from harm.

 

They would lose in court. It took scientology 25 years. Gays need to be a protected class....not join one that already exists.

 

Well, I'm going to spread the word on this. Since being heterosexual is part of people's religion being homosexual can be as well. All it takes is an enterprising lawyer. And people as clever as the pastafarians to invent a new religion.

Such questions wouldn't have much use because those aren't legal requirements for religion.

What you don't see isn't relevant.

Well, not exactly. There is a such thing as bona fide occupational qualifications. Where a Hasidic Jew can apply and get a job that requires him to work past sundown, and if he gets fired for leaving early he can get fired. He would have no recourse.

If the job requires you to have full function of your legs such as a fork lift operator, you can discriminate against paraplegics.

You aren't really thinking of anything new, court cases have been fought long ago regarding these things.

 

No, they don't. There are Christian Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist organizations that have gay members. They can get protection the same way anybody else does.

 

You are missing the point. Claiming relies exemption based on sexual orientation has zero chance of being upheld in court. Cite your legal precedent. I cited mine. You have a claim with no evidence

 

" Well, not exactly. There is a such thing as bona fide occupational qualifications. Where a Hasidic Jew can apply and get a job that requires him to work past sundown, and if he gets fired for leaving early he can get fired. He would have no recourse. "

Bad example, observant Chassidic Jews are not applying for Non Shomer Shabbos jobs, that would be from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, and to violate the Sabbath is not an option.
It is a personal option prior to applying for a job.

 

Please cite an example of "Exemption" based sole or in part, on "Sexual Orientation" with zero chance of being upheld in Court.

 

It's repugnant that people may have to do this to have rights, they should already have. But here we are, watching state after state sign bills making it legal to treat homosexuals poorly.

All the states have to do is Live and let live. But no, that isn't good enough, we must protect people's ability to create second class citizens.

You think it's repugnant that people have to use the banner if religion to gain freedoms? How do you think freedom has been justified all through out our nation's history?

We have all the rights, we just need to disallow the state the ability to infringe upon them.

There is nothing to lose in this situation we'll take it. Nobody should give is anything. States should butt the (*)(*)(*)(*) out of it.

Well if there is a law that is in the way, yes they do. And it's perfectly legal.

agreed, but the legal system has been notoriously poor at recognizing such rights. People shouldn't have to put their lives on hold until assclowns learn their opinions don't get to be state law.

First it's good to do this because it's a mockery of the assclowns. Using the law that they claim gives them the right to discriminate against them. So it's just turning the same logic back onto them, existing them as the hypocrites we all know they are.

Watching the back peddling is a delight.

And for the second reason, it's the American way. We don't plead for rights, they ate granted to us by our creator. We disarm, dismantle and destroy things that stand in that way. Much blood has been spilt for this.

 

You are saying religions are tax exempt if they meet criteria.

I am not arguing that.

I am arguing that Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion or abridging the freedom of speech.


The citation it's the first amendment.

Do I really need to cite examples of the constitution and the Bill of rights being the supreme law of the land, because you think you got me with some tax code crap?

 

I must disagree. This would be a step back in your movement toward legitimate rights. Black people never tried this because it is insulting to think that they should have to. The reason this has never been done already successfully in court is because it can't be. Please cite an example of where this has worked. The state must be able to declare a legitimate religion from a fake one.

Say I love football. My boss thinks it is a violent sport and people who watch it are stupid. He fires me SOLELY because I watch football. Could I claim football is my religion? Of course not.

 

And I am not arguing that you do not have the right to exercise any religion you want. But if you want to claim you are part of a protected class and want protection from the government then the government must recognize that religion as valid or else EVERYONE is part of a protected class (since anyone could claim anything is a religion) and then what is the point of having a protected class.

 

I will say this again to prevent confusion. Gays deserve equal rights and should be a protected class. Fight for those rights and I will fight with you. But don't lie to get them. Don't be something you are not. It cheapens and demeans your legitimate fight for freedom. Demand equality....don't settle for gamesmanship.

 

No. The notion is something that seemingly originates from the rhetoric of anti-gay pundits. That they're now trying to spin it into some sort of conspiracy theory as part of their anti-gay propaganda isn't too surprising.

I can, because it's very obviously idiotic if one understands anything about the diversity of actual gay people.

The fact that you held the opinion that same-sex couples marrying was a silly idea means that something else others regard as silly is more likely to happen? Really? No. There's nothing even remotely logical in that train of thought at all.

Possible doesn't mean probable.

Well, you're correct that you're an outsider looking in, and that that your perspective is quite naive.

The question is, how much reality about gay people can you handle? A lot of people try to shut out our reality because it doesn't agree with their prejudices and preconceived notions about us.

 

Saying that one's same-sex orientation is a part of one's religion is most definitely NOT the same thing as it being a religion, in and of itself. You can't force me to be a member of this enterprising lawyer's religion merely by virtue of the fact that I have a same-sex orientation.

 

" Say I love football. My boss thinks it is a violent sport and people who watch it are stupid. He fires me SOLELY because I watch football. Could I claim football is my religion? Of course not. "

If you miss work or are late, company policy can terminate.
You can't be fired for admitting you watch football in your spare time.

However, if football is a sacrament of your church.

Look at Islam, a Religion, Replace Muhammad, with Joe Namath and go down the doctrinal line, Football could indeed, be as much a Religion as is Islam.

Sacramental beer & all beef hotdogs.