Dangers of not paying attention

So I work with some really intelligent people that have masters degrees in anything from Engineering to Quality Systems to Political Science.

Most of these people are also well versed in many languages and like me have circumnavigated the globe several times stopping in every major city & hamlet all over the world. (very well rounded, well educated bunch)

We all get along very well, and we like each other very much even though we're all over the place politically.

Some of us are Democrats, some Republicans, some Independents and one or two Tea Partiers.

Where I'm going with this is that yesterday we all had an interesting conversation about where we thought this current race would go, who we thought would get the nomination for which party, so on & so forth......etc. etc.

One of my best friends who happens to be a female independent that voted for President Obama twice likes Donald Trump.

Needless to say I was floored (for all the obvious reasons) as well as everybody else in the group. (even the conservatives)

We all wanted to know "why" and so of course she went into how she wanted a leader with A, B, C qualities and that she thought Donald brought those qualities to the table.

What happened next wasn't pretty.........

One by one (including the conservatives) we asked her if she had heard his opinions or thoughts on certain policy questions he's been asked so far, or if she had heard any of the things he's said about immigrants. (especially Mexican immigrants because her white, Italian son married a Mexican woman, and she loves her grandkids to death)

We asked her if she heard what he said about keeping Muslims out, and on & on & on & on & on...............

Every single answer was: "no but I like him, and he's way ahead in the polls, and he's not a career politician"

Of course the women in the group chimed in and asked her if she had heard about any of the things Donald's said in his debates about women or any of the derogatory the things he said over the years about women.

Same answer: "no but I like him, and he's ahead in the polls, and he's not a career politician"

By now (because she is a very intelligent woman) she starts to see where this is going, and demands to see proof of what we're all talking about, because she can't believe that Donald could be that much of an @$$-hole.

The conservatives in the group directed her to certain web sites, and commenced to emailing her articles & such.

By the end of the day she was glowing red in the face and said that unless someone else came along much better qualified than everybody currently running, she just wouldn't vote this year.

Moral of this true story................know who the hell your voting for, don't get caught up in media excitement or the wave, and don't focus on one aspect of what you like or want in a candidate for the possibility of voting for a disaster.

Yes, I know the stupid Obama jokes will ensue at this point but we're coming to the end of his presidency so please fight the urge of doing that, and rather comment on what I wrote about.

Thanks.....

 

You think that's weird? my dad is libertarian, capitalist and pretty much opposed to big government and he claims he's going to vote for Bernie Sanders...lol

My dad is one of the biggest single issue voters I have ever met.....

I'm voting for Trump, My brothers are voting for Carson, I think my sister is too, and my libertarian mother is on the fence between Carson and Sanders..

You should have seen our political debate at Christmas - It was anarchy...

My Mom kept calling Trump a Nazi, I kept calling Sanders a soft ass Stalin... It was hilarious...

Of course we all agree (and know) we're libertarians....

Well, we all want to nominate Rand Paul but, we all know he wont get the nomination...

I don't know how someone can really like Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders at the same time tho.... My misguided father somehow believe progressives are close to libertarians - WRONG! And this guy (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)es about Obama all the time.

 

Are you saying all of those highly intelligent and rounded people will vote for Hillary or Bernie?

 

That is a strange mix, but as long as nobody is throwing food at each other at the dinner table it's ok.

I had something similar happen when I went to my aunts house in Jersey last Thanksgiving the way I always do every year.

One of my uncles that voted for President Obama (who also likes him very much) was really down on the president over this whole Muslim issue.

He said he didn't understand why the president was taking the same stance as President Bush right after 9/11.

I tried my best to explain to him that while we all agree there is a threat, and that everybody should stay aware, demonizing, antagonizing, and alienating millions of people in this country that have never shown any signs of violence towards their fellow Americans isn't a recipe for success, and that it's much better to have the cooperation of all of those people rather than "their backs" from making them feel like lepers or unwanted because that guarantees less voices coming forward when suspicious activity has been witnessed.

I realize many disagree with that assessment but I firmly believe this to be the case, and I couldn't get my uncle to see it that way nor could anybody else in the family.

What really struck me odd about all of it, is that this cat spent years in bands as a singer when he was much younger and has interacted with thousands of Muslims all throughout NJ over the years and he loves them to death, and has never said a bad word about them.................strange indeed.

 

Goodness no.......

Each of them have a candidate of their choice, and there are republican candidates that the conservatives in our group like......but nobody (in my office) except for the independent woman (until she saw the light) likes Trump....

 

The who do your Democrat friends vote for if not Hillary or Bernie?

 

My cat somehow managed to call 911 on my cellphone when it was laying on the table a few day ago. I know this because they called back to see if there was an emergency. Since the cat was already mad at me for not letting him go outside, I cannot say I don't believe this was not on purpose to report that I was holding him hostage. I'll lay all the candidates' photos out and let him pick the person I will vote for.

 

But how about your friends who have no cats.
I am curious who do the intellectual democrats vote for when it is certainly not Hillary nor Bernie.

 

Honestly some of the Democrats are up in the air right now. (including myself)

I think Bernie is a nice guy but his brand of politics is too much to the left so I don't see how he could ever get the nomination.

I don't have the same amount of heartburn with Hillary that a lot of other folks do because I don't focus on witch hunts that are merely meant to assassinate a persons character, or false claims of people not being able to help themselves from lying because of what their last name is.

Some of the other Dems are resigned to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee will be with maybe one Dem resigned to stay out of it altogether.

Having said that I wish Hillary's campaign had a bit more fire going for it but I have to tell you I really liked what Nikki Haley said the other night, and I'm starting to get a new opinion of her.

No, I didn't just like it because she put Trump in his place but because she seems to be the only person on the right with the mindset of the old-guard, people that actually went to Washington to work, and not shut everything down.

If she were running and said more things like she said the other night she'd have my vote.

 

I am also an engineer and I was in political hibernation for 2 terms ... voted for Bush twice and am sorry about that.

I liked Trump since July.

This is what I know ... my brother-in-law's mother (and her friend) knew Trump's father Fred and his family in Jamaica Estates. It is very close to where I live. So the reputation of trump family in the neighborhood is - good, decent people.

The reason I like Trump is because I know he will do what he says.
This is his reputation.
If he says something, he would do it.
If he keeps on repeating it - consider it done.
However, you need to be careful and pay attention to exactly what he is saying.

Thanks,
Ed

 

So, she's the only real conservative.

 

But any domestic initiative by either Bernie or Trump would have to be passed by Congress, a huge hurdle. On the foreign policy and war front, a president has more power. Both Bernie and Trump were against the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Trump has said he doesn't believe the U.S. should be the world's policeman. He does want to defeat ISIS, but he wants to work with the Russians on that. Hillary, on the other hand, defends the war we waged against Libya, the arming of Syrian rebels, and wants a freakin' no fly zone in Syria and has said yes, we would shoot down Russian aircraft in our self-proclaimed zone. In the area where a president has the most power, I think she is incompetent and dangerous. I think she is by far more likely to do something stupid with our military than either Bernie or Trump.

And then there is the whole Hillary Clinton aura - deceitful, flip-flopping, slick, cunning, hiding and covering up her tracks so she can't be accountable, entitled, remorseless, never grounded in principle, always sniffing the political winds and calculating ..... She epitomizes the very worst in politicians. She is the stereotype of the malicious, conniving politician of our nightmares.

Good God! The woman is utterly toxic.

How we could even dream of electing this person is beyond me.

SC, perhaps I am a bit to the right of you, but if the election were between Bernie and Hillary - no one else - I would vote for Bernie. The man at least has principle and character. My two cents.

 

Oh there was an attempted food fight indeed between a 3, 5 and 8-year-old lol........

No, I was just talking about my immediate family..... It was quite clear on Christmas Day my "elitist intellectual" uncle wanted to throw his plate at my head on my position on immigration....

He would have never or would ever try that (*)(*)(*)(*) because I'm 35 and he's pushing 70, so I could break him over my knee --- also he has zero argument so he kinda just gives you a "stare" like he wants to do something "wild" lol...

Of course he bounced after dinner and the rest of us just had some warm Swede 'Glug" lol...

 

Ok, let me try this again, she's a registered "Independent"

She voted for President Obama (twice).

She "liked" Trump until literally everyone in the office "educated" her on his inability to speak intelligently regarding policies, as well as all of his toxic rhetoric on everybody in America with "brown" skin.

To be clear here, she came to the conclusions she did about Trump because (like most people) she hadn't bothered to "truly" listen to what he's saying as much as she just got caught up in the excitement, or investigate much further than what all of the networks are saying because they're falling all over him because of the ratings he brings.

After an afternoon of reading speeches, watching videos, re-listening to some of his debate performances, and talking to people that have really followed him - she walked away very depressed & disheartened.

So, how she's the "real conservative" in the group is a bit beyond me.

 

I am doing much the same as you friend....Not Voting.

The difference being I have decided on this BECAUSE I know what candidates are and they all suck.

 

I have to admit that this field of candidates all the way around aren't exceptional, and I still don't know what I'm going to do yet myself, but I hope the both of us can find "something" to be happy about in the next election cycle...

 

My happiness went away when Huntsman decided not to play in the mud.

 

I usually pay no attention to what other think when it comes to politics, elections and political parties. My thoughts on Trump is he has had a huge bandwagon effect and that has propelled him to the top in the Republican nomination race and so far, has kept him there. Will it last, I do not know.

I do know a lot of people are fed up with all this political correctness junk, especially when it is used to stifle the oppositions political views. I think a lot of Trump's popularity today is his attack on political correctness and the damage more and more Americans are seeing political do to this country.

Most Americans want to see ISIS and terrorism dealt with, dealt with today, not three or four years down the road. They know if we were serious, we would be doing a lot more to combat ISIS. Most Americans fear another terrorist attack on U.S. soil, hence to them the ban on Muslims, if stated Syrian Refugees makes sense. Illegal immigration is another problem, a lot of Americans see this as these illegals as law breakers. It doesn't matter if they come from Mexico, Central America, Asia, Europe, Timbuktu or where ever.

They are criminals about the same as one who robs a 7/11 store. Those in power fail to see this and call these people, racist, bigots and a thousand other names because all they is America protected, to feel safe on our own soil and the rule of law. They want this nation to be a nation of laws, not just the laws the administration chooses to enforce while ignoring all others.They know the proper way if the existing law is bad or needs changing is to have congress do it and the president to sign the law into effect.

Because of political correctness we can not even have a national debate on this without the phrases of racist, bigot, you name it being thrown around. Trump political views and past stances for the most part have been liberal, he is no conservative, yet conservatives rally around him. Those who think political correctness is a huge problem have started jumping onto his bandwagon. Not for Trump's political views or ideology, but because they are becoming fed up with political correctness. Where you can't call a Muslim jihadist terrorist a Muslim jihadist terrorist.

Once our colleges and universities were a hot bed of debate over political views, ideas, visions and a source of new ideas. Not any more because of political correctness, they have become a place of either expressing one factions point of view or be gone, expelled, silenced.

It is Trump's constant attacks on political correctness that has got him to where he is today, he expresses his views, what he thinks and he doesn't hold back political correctness be danged. He comes off as the average American Joe, not some elitist which knows what is best for everyone else. His success is simple, he says A, B and C are problems, I will fix them. He does so sometimes in colorful language, sort of Trumanesque.

 

Do any of you think that if Romney had gotten elected that we would still be where we are today?

 

I see your points, I really do, and I get the same sense from people that they are upset about career politicians, or politicians too afraid to say what's really on their mind for fear of being labeled "fill-in-the-blank".

I also get the sense that people would like the government to make more immediate attempts or gestures to deal with terrorist factions, and that they are worried about the possibility of more lone or group attacks here at home.

Here's how I see all of these issues through "my prism".....

I see Donald as an individual that started this purely as a publicity stunt seeking attention, and I think at a certain point after it was obvious that his message was connecting, he got serious about it which still remains to be seen because in my heart, I truly don't believe Donald actually thinks he could ever win the Whitehouse. (absolutely I could be wrong about this)

I'm fine with any politician or non-politician speaking about keeping America safe or enforcing laws but not irresponsibly, or not in a fashion that divides the county further by alienating many groups that have been here for a long time that have contributed greatly.

I can tell you (from being married to a Hispanic woman) that the Hispanic community hates Donald with a burning passion, and not just Mexicans. Every Hispanic I know loathes the guy for all of his negative rhetoric about Hispanics, and they all take it very personal & feel very offended by everything coming out of his mouth.

Why, because they've been here for decades as well as their parents & grandparents, and they have all greatly contributed to this country.

They haven't all fallen out of the back of semi's on the freeway or climbed out of boats under cover of night or ran across borders running from border patrol officers, and they are all absolutely incensed over this man's heartless, cruel words about Latino's.

They have a right to feel that way because Donald isn't being responsible or "not being politically correct" when he says the hateful things that he says. He's doing it because he knows that it fires up a certain demographic that wants "someone like him" back in the Whitehouse.

Those are "not" the good traits or characteristics of a good leader, especially in a country as diverse as this one. There's a way to talk about the problems of immigration without being politically correct...without insulting millions of people while your doing it, and that's the issue people have with Donald.

It doesn't take any courage to get on a stage an just bash people like a bully or make soaring claims that you know you can never achieve, and thank God most of us with working elevators in our heads can still see the forest for the trees when people like Donald do that. We see them for what they really are, and we call them out for it.

The Muslim issue, right, so there are millions of Muslims that have been living in this country almost as long as every other group, and they are not a new anomaly that just moved in 20 or 30 years ago. The first recorded Muslim to come to this country came here a little over 300 years ago, and they have steadily been coming since that time.

In those "close to" 400 years we have roughly 10 major terror attacks and about 80 other little skirmishes where some crazed Arab stabbed someone or shot someone. Do the math, does any of that warrant people losing the ever loving minds now assuming that every Muslim in the country is secretly in their basements making bombs....no!!!

If you were to compare the amount of killings or attacks Muslims are responsible for in the US stretched over the last 400 years, opposed to all other groups, you would quickly see how embarrassing it is for us to even begin to treat all of them as if they're the problem or as if they're responsible for most of the death & destruction in this country. (it's absurd)

Our commanders in the pentagon have steadily chastised all of the republican candidates for all of their macho, tough guy talk about destroying ISIS because they know that none of the "lies" they're telling campaign rally audiences are achievable, yet people stand there with signs, buttons & hats believing fervently that these fools actually know more than our military, and that they'll wipe out a problem that has taken thousands of years to create.

I now better than to try to go down this road because I know how close minded everyone is on the subject, and how much they hate & distrust Muslims. The short of it is....to me, once again, it doesn't make any sense in alienating people or making them feel unwelcome. Or just in general making it clear that we hate them - when it's so much smarter to send the message that we should all be sticking together "as Americans" to thwart the threat of terrorism.

Presidential candidates have a responsibility to not only tell us how they're going to tackle problems, but it's also they're opportunity to show us how intelligent, poised, calm, rational, classy, and presidential their going to be, and I'm sorry to say that Donald thus far has failed in every category.

All he's shown us is how angry he is, who he dislikes, and by what degree.

In terms of policy the man is an empty suit. Every serious policy question of Donald is answered with the same response:

"we're going to get the right people on that" or "its gonna be huuuuuuuge"

In the history of American politics none of us have ever heard a more pathetic answer, yet people are losing their minds over this man gushing to support him.

He absolutely has no answers to any of the "real" issues we have, he's just speaking emotionally to hot button issues that are at the forefront or our national conversation at present.

What happens when all the cameras are turned off, and all the media attention goes away, and the cheering crowds eager to beat up Mexicans & Muslims, and drag people out of rallies like bullies - dissipate back to their everyday lives?

I'll tell you what happens, we'll have a extremely wealthy guy that got rich off of his daddy's money in the Whitehouse that has never acquiesced on anything in his entire life, and has no idea of what it is to concede a point or come to a consensus through compromise in order to get stuff done.

Donald doesn't know how to spell the word compromise let alone live or work by it, and that my friend is a recipe for disaster in politics at the presidential level.

 

If you mean: the economy chugging along at full steam, unemployment rate almost half of what it was a few years ago, gas prices down, corporations making record breaking profits, a healthcare system (modeled after Romney's health care plan) that has covered millions of people, amongst a plethora of other positive things..............no.

 

Frankly the Trump-haters are the ones who don't really listen to him. They depend on the pablum that the media feeds them. So now we see how Trump haters can gang up and bully a woman into getting her 'head right.' Shameful really.

 

You see this is where these types of conversations go from being civilized to childish.

Please know that most of the people that course-corrected this woman on Trump were "conservatives".

So I guess this "alleged" Trump hate your talking about came mostly from other conservatives such as yourself.

Please also know that it wasn't their "intent" to talk her out of voting for him as much as it started out in wanting to know "why she would throw her support behind him" knowing her as well as we all know her.

Also it wasn't meant to get her to "not" vote for the man.

In the end it was her decision, and she did change her mind because she wasn't aware of many things, period, nothing complicated.

This isn't about Trump hate.

Every time a politician or a media personality or registered voter, street-sweeper, cop, dog walker makes a comment about a politician "your type" doesn't like.........you attack.

Newsflash, this is America, and it's a very big country with many diverse thoughts & political ideologies.

Another newsflash, not everybody is always going to agree with what you like or who you like, so to obsessively attack others that may have an opinion other than yours is quite childish.

 

So if you like Trump you need a 'course correction?' And that 'course correction' is delivered by a gang of so-called 'conservatives' bullying you. I think I got it.

No, I wouldn't gang up on a woman in order to get her mind right.

What's wrong with because she likes him? Why does she have to tell them anything at all? Of course, it seems from your description of that work environment anyone who likes Trump should keep their trap shut.

Her decision was coerced obviously.

Wait, she didn't attack them, they attacked her by questioning her decision and intelligence.

The only ones obsessively attacking are the Trump haters.

 

Lets approach this from one last angle, after that I give up......

Imagine if you had a brother (maybe you do) who only likes & drives Chevy's, Fords, Buicks, Pontiacs, and Oldsmobile but will absolutely not touch or drive a Dodge with a ten foot pole.

Imagine that he's been this way his whole life, and everybody knows how he feels about Dodge (including all of his co-workers)

Your brother has had a long track record of disliking Dodge, and once again, everybody around him, that knows him well enough, knows it.

There's a get together at your house, and all of his friends are there, he announces that he's decided to give Dodge a try and buy a new Dodge Challenger.....

The whole room goes quite and everybody is: "not angry" - "not filled with hate" - "not ready to beat him up" - but they "are" surprised & shocked to hear this announcement from him.

Everybody in the room know all of the defects & problems Dodge has had of late, and they are all very curious as to why your brother has had a change of heart, and is now all of a sudden, out of the blue warming up to them.

Especially given the fact that your brother (on the outside) seems to be the type of person that prides himself on being well informed on such things.

The rest of the afternoon is spent by people walking up to him inquisitively asking why he decided to go with Dodge followed by other questions about his decision, and some people sharing information they have about Dodge that they think your brother should have - before he buys this car.

By the end of the day your brother has decided to change his mind and not buy the Dodge after all.

Nobody in the room necessarily set out to talk your brother out it of it, but they were shocked about his announcement and felt as though they at least owed him the benefit of knowing everything there was to know about Dodge before he bought one.


Now........for the last time, you & I know full well that these types of scenarios happen everyday all over the country all the time, and there's nothing wrong with talking cars or politics at work as long as nobody gets hurt.

If you like Trump fine, that's cool, but there's no need to get mad at anybody that may have decided to change their mind on him after talking politics at work, and psychologically, it tells me that your a little worried for him.

Maybe it makes you edgy to hear of a potential Trump voter changing their mind because you desperately want him to win. (honestly I don't know what the reasons are)

But calling everyone that talked to my female, independent friend at work a Trump hater is way off base, as they are not trump haters.