https://deadlinedetroit.com/article...07-048hca9r7SIBIdqJimZZMFyjAxnki83eIaz8e62Quc This is an interesting case that could be a precedent-setting conviction or acquittal. The judge states "The court finds that the deaths of the four victims could have been avoided if James and Jennifer Crumbley exercised ordinary care and diligence in the care of their son." There is no disputing that these people were bad parents. There is no disputing that those four students' deaths at the hands of a very troubled boy is tragic. That said, just miles away from the comfortable suburban utopia of Oxford, Michigan where the shooting occurred, lies one of the country's most dangerous cities. Detroit has at times occupied the #1 slot for per-capita homicide over the years and has rarely dropped out of the top 10. The key to survival in the Motor City is knowing where not to go, treating red lights as stop signs, and if you're smart, having some means of defending yourself. Detroit is chock full of irresponsible parents who fail to "exercise ordinary care." They turn out gun-toting thugs by the thousands who will kill you for your shoes. The death toll is also measured in the hundreds to thousands. To my knowledge, none of these parents have ever been charged as accessories to the misdeeds of their feral offspring. There is a notable difference betwen these parents and the Crumbleys. Care to take a guess? The judge has also struck a blow to the gun control argument by affirming that it is indeed people who are responsible for acts of violence, rather than inanimate objects. And it buttresses my own long-stated argument that bad parenting tends to create bad outcomes.
As a Detroiter myself I find this interesting. Hope we can get some of the anti 2A gun grabbers point of views. Personally, I like the idea of charging the parents. In Detroit and I’m sure many other Dem strong holds We see parenting as the number one problem with the crime rates. Education, drugs, gangs and other issues contribute, but total breakdown of family structure is rampant. Just this past weekend three people had been found in a home shot dead on the west side. A mom, a boyfriend (baby daddy?) and the moms 5 y/o son, who was shot in the head execution style. The perps have been arrested a 16 and 17 y/o. I would love to see these parents held accountable to some degree. Dosent have to be 20 years in prison but 5 sounds good. How about a mandatory 2 years for creating a monster?
Current Events?? Meh... I understand there was a ruling from the judge yesterday, but the parents were charged almost 3 months ago... We had a 15 page thread on it, which is only on Forum page 2 at the moment... http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ooting-suspect.594838/page-15#post-1073277596 The only thing new I see in the OP article is this extremely damaging entry from Ethan's journal SNIP Earlier in the day, the prosecution introduced evidence from Ethan Crumbley's journal in which he wrote: "I have fully mentally lost it after years of fighting my dark side. My parents won't listen to me about help or a therapist." ENDSNIP Ruh Roh...
Grand River & Fenkell here... The gun grabbers say it's the guns. They refuse to hold accountable the actual violent actors, choosing instead to explain away the feral youth with every excuse and rationalization they can think of and always the guns guns guns. Guns don't fire themselves. The elephant in the room: We all know the vast majority of violent crime committed in Detroit (and Chicago, Cleveland, Oakland, New Orleans, South LA, Philly, etc al) is committed by one specific demographic. This demographic offends at a rate so highly disproportionate to the greater society as a whole, it literally requires a different scale of measurement. It is my view -- backed up by decades of studies and data on child development -- that the primary reason for this massive statistical outlier is one thing: Parenting, and in this demographic specifically the lack of it. Yet we will never see a judge or a prosecutor suggest that the parents of the gangbangers who kill each other a dozen a week should be charged let alone held accountable for the damage, death, and destruction their feral cause. And cynically blame inanimate objects, referencing the subtle bigotry of low expectations, of viewing this demographic as "less than."
If these White parents are responsible for their child's deadly violence, would black parents not also be equally responsible?
I think it would be better to deal with each case on it's own, and leave race out of the equation. Not that I disagree with SOME of your assessment, but by introducing race into it at this point would hinder the end result. This is a good case to try, I do think the parents have some responsibility as they provided the youth with a firearm and ignored the signs, school officials and everything else for their own reasons. We must be careful, though, as some parents are doing all they can and their kids still screw-up. Each case is different, so must be examined on it's own. The racial overtone of your post will not be helpful to reaching solutions, imo, no matter how accurate the information. There are many black parents trying hard to keep their kids out of trouble. The problem is a lot more complicated than just the parents keeping their kids under control. You make some good points about the crime, but I think it's important not to let the conversation degrade into a racial flame baiting one. Then, the original point will get lost, and I see that happen every day. It is an important issue, though, and all parents need to pay attention to it.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I think you have set the tone for a productive discussion, and I appreciate that. Your comments on the aspect of race in this instance are not without merit and perhaps it is I who have done a poor job of articulating my position. Let me see if I can clarify my thoughts. We have seen in our culture -- in my view -- the troubling growth of the notion that race defines everything. When in reality, race itself in an artifice: Where human beings are concerned, there is one race: genus; homo / species; sapiens. Thus, the conversation really distills to skin color -- literally measured in thousandths of a percentage point of DNA variability -- and the perceptions attached thereto. This judge has finally made an argument that resonates with the vast majority of people who were raised to believe that individuals are responsible for their actions -- rather than some outside forces or societal/cultural influences -- and that good parenting is the best way to instill that lifeway into a developing child who will eventually become an adult and likely to pass those beliefs along to their progeny. There is a counter-argument to that belief w/r/t the black community -- often advanced by paternalistic White liberals in positions of influence in the culture which trickles down to the masses through media, entertainment, and other cultural instruments -- that blacks are disproportionately influenced by their perceived victimization by society, by culture, by "systemic inequities," etc., and therefore cannot be expected to behave in accordance with the minimum standards we have set in the "social contract." Hence, we see the rise of pallid tropes such as "black lives matter" (as if they don't), "defund the police" (because blacks can't behave), "systemic racism" (because every bad thing that happens to a black person is evidence of racism), etc.. Reductio ad absurdum: We are now even supposed to believe that math is racist. Requiring valid license plates is racist. Suggesting writing and speaking standard English is racist, etc.. All these malapropisms are really nothing more than vulgar cruelty disguised as adulation, as advocacy, and "tolerance." As if to state these behaviors need to be tolerated because blacks simply don't know any better. They speak to, speak of, and treat them like children. So it is in this case the artificial construct of race becomes the differentiator both in terms of cultural perceptions, and in actual treatment of people both in the society and in the legal system itself. If we are holding White parents accountable for the misdeeds of their offspring citing "ordinary care and diligence," we ought to be similarly holding black parents to the same standard.
LOL. Predictable and reflexive fallback position. Congratulations for meeting my very low expectations!
I can't say I agree with you 100%, but I hear where you are coming from. Only issue is that this case you started the thread about, and the subjects you are discussing, to me, should be unrelated, and probably needs a different story and post for that. The article you posted was about the parents of a school shooter being charged with related crimes. IMO, anything about race would be a different topic and thread. That said, I do believe strongly in individuals being responsible for their actions, no matter the color of their skin, no matter what uniform they are wearing, no matter where you are from or what your name is, etc. As a parent of 6 kids, I think we have to be careful how much we blame on the parents. To be sure, there are many cases of "bad" parenting, but there are many others where the parents have done all they could and the kids still ran amuck. On a side note, I bow to the robots everyday! I teach a class in Robotics, so..................lol.
Fair point. Reasonable people can disagree. Here is where I will respectfully disagree: We have a legal opinion from a judge that presumes parents should be held responsible for the misdeeds of their child. Thirty miles down the road is one of the most dangerous places on Earth (no exaggeration). Why is it so dangerous? Could it be because generations of parents have not exercised ordinary care and diligence as the judge suggests in the mostly-White suburb? Intellectual consistency would suggest both sets of parents should be treated the same. But I am not aware of a single case of a parent in the City of Detroit being held criminally-responsible for the homicidal behavior of their child. Five decades of social programs have never produced the notion that black parents of gang bangers be held responsible for their kids' feral activities. Disclosure: I grew up in Detroit. I remember one news story -- probably back in the '80s -- of one gang member who murdered a rival gang member with a gun. HE WAS 11, How does an 11-year-old get his hands on a gun? Heck, how does the gun even fit in those hands? 100%. Absolutely. I think the standard the judge cited, again, is ordinary care and diligence. Nice! Let's hope they remember the Asimov rule.
Hope you don't mind the editing, but I hate when long posts being reposted over and over. Never saw the Asimov rule, but I completely agree! The robots we use are well trained, most of the time! Industrial robots can do a lot, but real thinking isn't one of them. If you program one to do something, it follows rule 2 and disregards everything else. lol Thanks for the conversation. This is how I think most disagreements should be handled. Most of the time, the disagreement isn't as much of a disagreement as it may seem, and it never hurts to be civil to each other. After all, doesn't that go to your other points? Teaching by example works wonders, and some of these youths you are referring to often don't have good examples. Sometimes they do and ignore them. Each case is it's own.
Thank you as well. It is sad that so many of us out there in the world reflexively view people who merely have a differing viewpoint as their enemy. Frankly, I would much engage in civil discourse with someone I disagree with. It sure is easy to let that pot boil over, though! Have a great weekend! By the way -- love your avatar! Huge Rush fan here. They were the first band I ever saw in concert! 1980, Subdivisions Tour. Cobo Arena, downtown Detroit with my dad and my best friend John!
Thanks again. The Rush tour in 1980, Detroit, was for Permanent Waves, and featured an encore of "La Villa Strangiato" I wish I could have seen that one! You are lucky! I saw the "Moving Pictures" tour in 1981, at the old Cleveland Coliseum. They were awesome!
Of all the tours, I wish I could have seen that one. Moving Pictures was great, but the show you saw covered 2112 and Permanent Waves, my personal faves. I wish I had been able to go to that one. I try to explain to people where I live now what it was like growing up in the Cleveland, Akron, Detroit area in the 60's, 70's and early 80's. The music scene was awesome! My first concert was opened by the Rockets, from Detroit. And good old WMMS. Thank you, that brought back some very fond memories.
Parents of white shooters = responsible Parents of black shooters = exempt this makes perfect sense under liberal ideology. What’s the problem?
The OBVIOUS Answer: The Crumbley's are Parents to a Kid who shot up (and murdered multiple people at) a School.
I don't think a blanket statement has been made that white parents are responsible and black parents aren't. This is one case, and one where the details point out specific actions or inactions by the parents that enabled their son to do what he did, up to and including the day of the shooting. I'm certain similar cases could be made about black parents, white parents, and parents in every other demographic as well when their children commit crimes, but they have to be based on specifics, not blanket statements, generalities, stereotypes, and assumptions from afar. This echoes what Balancing Act has been saying in this thread, that each case needs to be examined based on the specifics of that case, not across the board statements. Examining specific cases I can get behind, no matter who the parents are or what demographic they're a part of. Pretending that this case sets an absolute standard like you have insinuated with your post is wrong.
However, that is not what the judge stated: Her standard was simply "ordinary care and diligence." I would argue that would apply to the majority of feral youth out there committing violence and causing mayhem.
