Does Anyone Here Actually Know How to Argue?

I'm starting to get more than irritated at posters who are unwilling to engage the meat of an argument and prefer to obfuscate the issues. I'm sick of people who, frankly, are probably too stupid to make a good argument and feel the need to lie or derail conversations in order to win political points.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the (*)(*)(*)(*)ing kitchen. I'm tired of making arguments and investing time debating people who then run away when they have nothing to say for themselves.

This is supposed to be a political forum, presumably devoted to the serious discussion of issues.

Your emotional reaction to something is not an argument. A personal attack is not an argument. If you want to attack other posters while arguing, that is fine, but ACTUALLY make an argument. If someone makes a statement that contradicts or refutes your statement, you need to challenge what they are saying. You also shouldn't be focused on the motives of a poster if they have an argument readily available. Attack their argument, regardless of what your personal feelings toward the poster are. All of us slip occasionally, but the majority of our posts should not consist of lying, derailing, and trying to assassinate the integrity of other posters, particularly when they have arguments on the table.

The people who engage in this know who they are. Try to reflect on the fact that you are having to resort to these tactics to derail or win debates, and then ask yourself if this might be an indication that you are wrong.

 

Feel free to start a topic and pick your side and I will take the other and debate you. I would love to see a serious debate forum here, heavily moderated, where issues can be reasonably discussed.

 

I don't really enjoy the tight structure of a formal debate, hence my use of the word argue, but if you ever find yourself strongly disagreeing with something I've said, please feel free to challenge me, and I promise I won't resort to the nonsense you typically find--I will always do my best to take your actual arguments into account.

I think the structure of the common threads, and the nature of the forum, presumes that people are seriously discussing/debating issues, so I don't think we need moderators or structure to pull it off.

That being said, I'm glad someone on here agrees with my general sentiment.

 

Yes I agree with you but look at our environment here. It's a political forum on the internet so it attracts certain individuals not unlike many sports forums which are even worse. I will say that out of all the political forums I frequent this is by far the best moderated one with the most civil community.

Go to some others and it's just outright hostile.

 

I agree, and I like it here a lot. The minority of good posters make it worthwhile, but I just get really irritated with people who derail threads and obfuscate issues. Of course, I have to respond, lest those on the fence are convinced by a bull(*)(*)(*)(*) argument.

I never duck an argument, but I end up spending hours wasting time on posters who have nothing but nonsense to spout. I just wish they would stop.

 

Then I can't help but wonder what the hell this thread is doing here.

 

They need to be called out more. Those who engage in this get away with criticism far too often. This thread is also a reminder to those who might not be chronic offenders, but engage in the behavior more often than is good for the forum.

 

I AM your huckleberry.

 

LOL a sense of humor is always a good thing!

 

I was never a big fan of ignore lists until recently. It's not perfect, but it helps to rid yourself of compulsive trolling.

Also, speaking for myself, I'm not always in a position to delve very deeply into the arguments. Sometimes I just post off-the-cuff. I try to at least be relevant, but sometimes I jump into a convo when I shouldn't.

 

I worry about doing that in the event that someone actually makes a good point. Those who I consider trolls virtually never do, but something inside me makes me want to respond.

 

Hey, what's up?


(just seeing if I'm on his list )



.

 

Why not take it as a concession? You could be making strong enough points that your opposition can't counter. You then know what types of arguments to use on a subject going forward. IDK just my 2.

 

Lmao. No, Sundance. I've always enjoyed our convos.

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That used to be my MO, but I've tired of it recently.

 

Both you dooshes are SJWs from Anand.Ask me how I know that.It's a fact,Jack.Also other places where you post "FSM" and all that malarkey.

 

As you have no control over those that you debate the choice becomes to be regularly irritated or to just make your case and hope from time to time to get a well thought out rebuttal. Over time you will identify the posters who value objectivity over bias. For example from my perspective you are one of the more objective members on the forum, this does not mean that I allways agree with you but I like your debate style, objectivity, and ability to admit when you are wrong... that is a rare thing here.

Sadly your words are likely wasted upon your target audience as from their perspective you are the unreasonable one. Are you here to change minds? If so good luck with that exercise in futility! It's not that it is impossible to change the mind of another, it's just very unlikely as to change the mind of another they must respect you, see you as an objective source of information, and most importantly they must have an open mind. I could be wrong, but from my perspective I get the feeling most are here to be right and change the minds of others. Me.... I am here to learn, and if I change a mind, cool, and if not, cool.

 

Yes, we each need to answer the question, "Why am I here?"

If I'm reading ricky correctly, he enjoys a good exercise in critical thinking. That's my main reason as well, along with the lolz. I'm not trying to change minds, but if I can help someone along the way, that's a plus.

 

I agree with your post.

I don't use the ignore list. If I get one of those one-sentence attacks, I just don't answer it and move on. (OK, sometimes I zing 'em back and then move on.)

There are some really good people here who are well-informed and who enjoy a lengthy discussion. Those folks are what make it worthwhile.

My two cents ...

 

Having them stop is one thing, but having them come back and disrupt other threads is quite another. I'd also appreciate it if people told me when they had no intention of responding to large posts. I try to systematically deal with objections, and it sucks to have spent 15 minutes crafting a response that is simply ignored.

I'm just ranting. Hopefully, those who aren't like this will be encouraged to call out those who do engage in this behavior. Maybe we'll get lucky enough that one or two will change their tactics.

Agreed. I'm just going to have to use my time more wisely and focus on the posters who will actually have a discussion.

I feel the same about you. We don't always agree, but I always get a legitimate response from you when we don't.

Hmmm. This thread is certainly a rant, and most likely futile, but perhaps it will encourage good posters to hold the trolls accountable more often.

Perhaps we need to rank the posters on here in terms of their argumentative style/acumen. We'll look at the top 20 and the bottom 20. Those who end up in the bottom 20 will be scorned for all time

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Agreed, but you forgot...

 

no u

6char

 

Some of us have busy lives and don't have time to write a 2,000 word essay.

And if I see an idiotic post like "Republicans love pollution", I'll respond with an equally short post.

 

We have a winner!

Totally understandable, but people should not be hastily responding to serious arguments if they aren't willing to invest the time necessary to support their position.

Agreed, if someone says something truly asinine, you are not obligated to write a lengthy essay explaining why the post is stupid. A simple insult will usually suffice lol. I use them occasionally to goad people into debates, but I prefer to just grind away at the problem.

 

Thats because some want to promote an agenda, and honest discussion is anathema to their stance.

 

You: " a personal attack is not an argument"

You mean like this :Quote Originally Posted by rickysdisciple View Post

You are not to be taken seriously.

Please try to actually debate me. Do you think I can't prove that men care a lot about looks? Do you really believe that? I didn't think so. You know, when I first came here I enjoyed debating people, but many people, like yourself, just don't have the requisite reasoning ability to meaningful engage with people. In fact, you just pollute the country with stupidity and make it more difficult to solve problems. We need people like you to stop voting and accept that you aren't capable of meaningfully contributing to the conversation.""""




"""The people who engage in this know who they are. Try to reflect on the fact that you are having to resort to these tactics to derail or win debates, and then ask yourself if this might be an indication that you are wrong. """"

 

I don't use the ignore list either, it's for those who are too cowardly to just skip a post (or read it and ignore it) or have lost the argument...