Egyptian helicopter invades Israel's airspace

And they dont because they are so peacful right


we keep an eye open in our borders that hasnt been peacful, if you can understand than good - you're not compleatly brainwashed

 

If we HAD a problem with that you'd be claiming that pilot body parts

 

I think hardly anybody would have a problem with Israel watching its borders if its soldiers stayed within these borders while watching them.

 

Like Buddhism? I can't think of any other 'civilized' religions that aren't either divisive or fundamentally belligerent in their nature or application.

 

I hate to disappoint you, but it seems that even Buddhists aren't all angles:



http://www.religiondispatches.org/books/2158/monks_with_guns:_discovering_buddhist_violence/

 

A photo of a small boy with a water pistol hardly cements your case.

 

Well, it would seem that some monks are having to turn to militancy as defence. I'm slightly suspicious though of an author who asserts that these people have a 'penchant' for violence.

 

I'll just concede with the articles statement that all humans have a penchant for violence regardless of race or creed. Sad but true.

 

Well it started about Abu’s sentiments and I took this to be in general and not specific to the thread. What WHO means by a hotspot is quite evident from the link and that is where there is a lot of activity in the organ trade. Widespread poverty and d lack of regulations would make just about the whole planet a hotspot! I think you are cherrypicking however the numbers alone do not add up. If we take 2009 and kidney transplants then there were 83 from dead donors and 69 from live ones in Israel whereas in Eygpt there were 3000 legal ones and reportedly hundreds of illegal ones the vast majority for money. There are documented hundreds of cases of Egyptians selling their kidneys. Obviously it is not the case that Israel is the predominant market for the Egyptian trade although doubtless it is a participant on that side of the equation just as other well developed nations and nations with a rich elite including of course Egypt itself. Bottom line is that Egypt is a much bigger player and Israel is not running the business, Egypt is.

The report you quote from WHO shows that South Africa at the time at least, was a hotspot irrespective of the nationality of the recipients or donors. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that with illegal trafficking both donor and recipient are victims each in their own way. Naturally if you look at developed nations you will not be able to compare Egypt and Israel however I’ve no doubt that the percentage of Egyptians carrying a donor card is tiny even compared to Israelis. While I agree that donor cards should be encouraged I believe responsible governments also need to heed cultural sensitivities on such matters and pursue alternatives. Israel has done just that so that last year the first kidney transplant was performed where there was not a match in blood types. This medical technology increases the option of finding donors from close family rather than relying on dead donors.

Are you suggesting that the Palestinians in Israeli prisons are being held hostage? Its value not numbers which are relevant with hostage taking however I am surprised you consider it relevant at all when regimes hold hostages.

Oh come on, recent increases in refugees can have many reasons other than being the result of less shooting! The crisis in Egypt has undoubtedly made the journey for these refugees even more dangerous not less but they are very desperate people even willing to risk having their organs harvested let alone being shot.

I beg to differ. The will of the people is often decisive post revolutions. I would take Iran as a good example of a people who didn’t care for democracy in ’79 and who essentially got what they wanted. There are plenty of examples of people coping for generations with insecurity rather than opting for stability when it goes against their ideals so I do not go along with your notion of a threshold.

As I’ve written I don’t believe Egyptians really want democracy so it not a matter of stamina. It’s a matter of the Abu Sinas of Egypt wising up and changing sentiment! Wait and see how the new constitution forms and gets voted on and you will see who the revolution is given to, not stolen.

 

Actually what the WHO means by hotspot is not at all evident from your link. Which is probably why you had to get the numbers you mention here – and I wouldn't even say they're wrong - from some unmentioned other source (unless you got more information promised to Reuters 3000 Xtra subscribers which I'm not). They are pretty meaningless numbers though when it comes to illegal organ trade, wouldn't you agree? Because again we don't know who the paying recipients of illegal organ trafficking are.

And obviously both Nancy Scheper-Hughes of Organ Watch and this article seem to differ on your assesment as to who's running the business http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/w...ey-path-poverty-hope.html?pagewanted=4&src=pm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_Israel
Now you may want to discredit Scheper-Hughes for an „anti-semitic“ tone in her remarks, but I reckon she probably knows more about the organ market than you and me combined.
And I'm afraid if the world was only populated by people who are prone to positive discrimination when it comes to the wrongdoings of people who happen to be Israeli, said 2008 law would never have been passed by the Knesset.
Let's hope that both the 2008 Knesset laws and the new Egyptian laws on organ trade are going to be properly implemented.

Yes, with some of the Palestinian prisoners that seems to be the case, especially with those that are held without a trial under "administrative detention" and with child prisoners that are held against international law. However infuriating that may be, I do indeed not consider it relevant to our discussion. It was you who brought up hostage taking, remember?

I don't think these desperate refugees expected that their journey would include the risk of their organs being harvested, they were however desperate enough to take great risks.
And you are indeed right that the Egyptian army hasn't quite given up its rather unsavoury methods of protecting Israel's border yet. On googling I found indeed one report on a Somali refugee who was shot in August this year. They might even shoot more again now that Israel has allowed Egypt to deploy more soldiers into the Sinai http://news.yahoo.com/israel-permits-more-egyptian-soldiers-sinai-160748809.html. As a staunch supporter of Israel you should be glad that the Egyptian army still seems to be willing to secure Israel's borders, shouldn't you? And maybe with increased forces in the Sinai the Egyptian army will even get around to do something about the criminal practices of Bedouin human traffickers (while probably still not behaving haflway decently towards the refugees).

Abu Sina seems to me the perfect example of how people long for stability and security. I distinctly remember reading a post where he describes the military as the only institution that that still ensures law and order in his area of living now that the police-forces have basically gone. And I reckon he's probably not among the ones that keep protesting against the imprisonment of bloggers such as Alaa Abd El Fattah. But maybe we should let him speak for himself.

I'm also pretty sure that in upcoming elections Abu will probably not vote for the same party that I would vote for. But that's democracy for you: people will vote for candidates they think are best, not necessarily candidates that tyrenik and junobet deem best. So the fact that Americans were from my point of view breathtakingly stupid when they let Bush get a second term, would not make me say that Americans reject democracy.

 

Breathtakingly stupid? What did you think when we elected Obama?

 

Face it: Almost the entire world thought Bush to be an utter moron. Obama still seems like a genius in comparison. Doesn't mean that he is. Even I look tall when being stood up next to one of the seven dwarfs.
But feel free to vote for whoever you want to in the next elections. That's democracy: if you want to vote for an even worse moron than Bush was, go for it!

 

...that nobody could possibly be more stupid than his epically moronic predecessor, George W. Bush.

 

Well, actually Palin could probably beat Bush to it. Just imagine the Americans had voted for McCain, he had had a heart attack and she would have access to the red button right now. *Shudder*

 

How. Did. You. Feel. When. We. Elected. Obama?

I'm not sure how slowly I have to type it for you to actually answer the question I asked.

 

I did, you just didn't notice: relieved. Unfortunately whoever is your President has access to quite a big and destructive arsenal of weapons. Had Palin become your Vice-President I still would not have doubted the democratic legitimacy of it, but I would have felt compelled to build an earth-bunker.

 

The disaster of the past 3 years should illustrate the stupidity of the move of electing Obama.

 

At least the world is still standing.
While I don't quite share your view on this, I can understand how you feel. Like you I am governed by somebody I didn't vote for and whose policies I don't necessarily like. That too is part of democracy: the majority wins and the rest has to put up with that in the hope that in the next election their candidates fare better.

 

You seem to have a history of electing disasters to the presidency-your last disaster lasted 8 years. What is it with you people?

 

That is the problem of the current usage of democracy - having the vote between two parties where the difference between them is the width of a hair.

 

What was the alternative? I didn't vote for Bush in the primaries.

I really didn't like the other options.

But I knew the worst option when I saw it, and that was Obama.

 

Not at all evident!

From the source in second place:

Pakistan, currently thought to be the world's second biggest centre for the organ trade ...

Isn't that evident enough that what is meant is centres of organ trade? I can see you don't like to view the business in that way but rather on the nations of the recipients. That perspective on abortion would make Ireland a hotspot!

I don't think WHO was differentiating between illegal and legal organ trade. The numbers give an indication of the absolute limits of the trade in Israel and Egypt.

Lets get back on track. The claim here is that Israelis have a weakness for collecting body parts and Abu can't even imagine what they want them for but blames them for the actions of his countrymen in supplying them. The truth is that the Israelis who go abroad to have a transplant are desperate and trying to save themselves from death. In that respect they are not so different from the Sudanese refugees fleeing to Israel except of course no one blames Sudan for being behind the trade in human smuggling while corrupting the poor Egyptians! How much do we hear of the stories of seriously ill Israelis being cheated out of large amounts of money for scam transplants? In the news here the story is breaking about seriously ill Danes being cheated and exposed to serious risks travelling to Ukraine to have foster cell treatment. No doubt there are both unscrupulous Danes and Ukrainians behind this trade and yet no one is blaming Denmark for being a hotspot for this trade but rightly Ukraine.

No I don't want to discredit Scheper-Hughes and yes she surely knows a lot more about the trade however I don't believe her account lends credence to an alliance between Egyptian Bedouin and Israel on cross border trade in organs harvested from hostaged Sudanese refugees murdered when ransom wasn't forthcoming. No where does Scheper-Hughes suggest that unscrupulous as they may be, Israeli organ brokers are involved in murdering refugees to harvest their organs.

Developments in Israel are moving in the right direction however the same cannot be said in Egypt where economic conditions hold more sway than laws. Even if the situation improves in Egypt the problem will move elsewhere. The real hope I believe rests on new alternative treatment like the one I mentioned and in the longer run growing new organs from the patients own cells either inside or outside the body.

As for state hostage taking in the case of Israel, What is the evidence? The thought has occurred to me but that was after the Iranian diplomats case. I was not referring to the issue itself but numbers.

I think you canb be fairly sure that reports of all kinds circulate in the refugee community and refugees know of these risks however hard it is for them to evaluate them. Worthy of note also is the fact that Sudanese face the death penalty for treason in their home country if they set foot in Israel. I don't know why you would think there would be any let up for the situation of Sudanese refugees trying to cross into Israel after the uprising in Egypt. Egyptian society has a long history of racism and discrimination against Sudanese and other Blacks. Even far from the border they are treated little more than objects for target practice by many Egyptian soldiers.

I am a little taken aback to be called a staunch supporter of Israel! I might add that I have been involved in boycotts and demonstrated against Israel when I was younger. As for continued border protection I think the recent cross border terrorist attack suggets otherwise. Perhaps what is being protected is the extortion for what makes you think the army is any less criminal than the Bedouin? Perhaps we should ask an expert, a Sudanese refugee who he fears most Bedouin or the army?

Yes, I too remember how he described his beloved army however he doesn't see the army as oppressing democracy just the opposite, so he is in no way selling out on the revolution for stability and security. I think Abu has always been a sofa revolutionary.

No, democracy is far more than the simple act of voting for the party of your choice. Its about human rights, individual freedoms, respect for minorities etc. etc. Abu has never really been in favour of democracy. If Americans were in favour of the practice of virginity testing of young female demonstrators wouldn't you see that as a rejection of democracy? That's what this is about not simply different choices of candidates!

 

What a disappointment: you have not got back on track. Have a look at the top of the page: this thread is titled: „Egyptian helicopter invades Israel's airspace „

Did you? So what happened along the way that these days makes you feel the need to whitewash Israelis role in illegal organ-trafficking for which there are numerous examples or to ignore all human rights violations that the Israeli government is responsible for to this very day?

Undoubtedly - if for different reasons - a Sudanese refugee has reason to fear both.
And again: if you're not a staunch supporter of Israel why do you neglect to mention that a Sudanese refugee also has reason to be in fear of Israeli border patrols that have been known to send refugees right back into Egypt, well knowing what kind of fate awaits them there.

What noble ideas! What a pity that they've long been sold out by the oh so progressive West. Let's hope that on its way to democracy Egypt does not copy the US's attitudes towards spying on its citizens, torture or imprisoning people without charge.

And spare me your obsession with 'virginity testing' - There are examples of American soldiers doing far worse and there are plenty of posters here who have happily defended such deeds. Just as they'll happily defend overly use of violence of the American police against OWS protestors.
I wouldn't put that against all Americans - yet you don't seem to have the urge to generalize about "Egyptians not wanting democracy" while there are plenty of examples of Egyptians who are still risking quite a lot to get just that.

 

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Bo-Rat's comment

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No - Adam + Eve , would have accomplished a great deal more .





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What a bunch of homegrown bull(*)(*)(*)(*).