Evidence for Beliefs

Do you have 'evidence' for your beliefs? Have you experienced something that compels you to conclude the existence of God or the supernatural?

Or, do you have compelling evidence for NOT believing in God or the supernatural? Have you had experiences or information that have contributed to your disbelief in the supernatural?

You can describe your experiences, or give your reasons for your beliefs. Nobody exists in a vacuum, but are the result of many influences in life. Upbringing, education, peers, indoctrination, deception, imagination. These & other things can influence our opinions & beliefs.

You can vote for the reason for YOUR belief, if you have one.

This is a simple poll, on the binary question that has plagued humanity for millennia:

'Is there a God?'

 

What do you mean by supernatural? If there truly is a god, I would consider that god natural. The fact that some humans might consider it supernatural is just the limited understanding of that human. When I talk about what nature is, that includes the theological subtleties, even if I'm not sure of how they work.

I think theists are making themselves a disservice branding their gods as supernatural. It introduces a clash between their views and what happens in the real world, when such a clash isn't necessary for the arguments to work. I don't think I have experienced anything supernatural, because my understanding of the world (even though I don't know the details of how it works) is, by definition, natural. If there is an almighty God, then he is a part of that which I consider to be natural.

 

Ive experienced several things that could be construed as supernatural. Does that mean I accept those as evidence for the supernatural?

No. I was in a state where my perceptions were chemically altered in all cases and I cannot trust the “evidence” is accurate.

 

For lack of a better term... It is the age old question: 'Is there a God?' This is a yes/no dichotomy, and a call for reasons or evidence for the beliefs/conclusions.

Exactly. That is why i put that option in the poll. That is your conclusion, based on all the factors you see in your own perceptions.

 

I don’t have a conclusion. I have evidence that I cannot accept as being accurate. I cannot support it objectively.

 

?? So your 'perceptions' are not factors in your worldview? You have no 'evidence' for the things you believe, regarding the universe? You do not accept some evidence.. i get that. I don't either. But is there any 'evidence' you base your opinions about the nature of the universe on? Abiogenesis? Evolution? are these not 'beliefs' in the naturalistic world view?

 

My perceptions are only trustworthy when they can be objectively verified.

 

My actions

Something beyond natural yes, proof-math

cause-effect

unknown either way

 

Your actions are the consequences or conclusions FOR your beliefs. They do not provide evidence for them.

..not sure what you mean, here

.. more of a pure agnostic, then? 'I don't know' would be a proper answer for the OP, but i deliberately left it out, since it is NOT an expression of 'belief', but an admittance of ignorance. Those who claim to 'know', are tasked with providing evidence, in whatever form it takes, for their beliefs.

With all the armchair philosophers here, so few have taken the poll.. I have not seen that many pure agnostics here, who simply say, 'i don't know', but most posters are very clear with their worldviews. I am very interested in seeing the breakdown of beliefs, regarding this Question of the Ages. A simple vote, & maybe a comment, to describe your world view?

I'm sure others would be interested in seeing the spectrum of opinions & reasons for those opinions, too. How about it? It's not a trap, & nobody will come to your door with a pamphlet. It is just a simple explanation for the 'reason' you believe the way you do.

 

That seems to me a false dichotomy.

Consider the question "Is there a god"? My answer is I don't know (If we disregard some concerns like cognitivism, as well as actual conclusions from evidence). Some would label such a position agnostic.

But let's say the question is "Do you believe there is a god?". Do I hold the statement "there is a god" as true? No I do not, I remain undecided. The answer would not be yes, and by the definition that disbelief is the logical compliment to belief, my position would be described as disbelief. Such a position would be called atheistic.

It could be argued that our beliefs only take the latter form. It is not up to us whether god exists, it is only up to us what we believe.

I refrain from using stronger language here ("It could be argued" rather than "it is true that") because there are some other technicalities at play, but I don't believe they are relevant.

 

It seems a rational extrapolation, that if you consider the statement,
'There is a God,' to be false, you would consider,
'There is no God,' to be true, which is a statement/ opinion of belief.

God..
No God..

That is the simple dichotomy that i have tried to generalize & include anything that humans might perceive to be 'supernatural.'

Supernatural..
Naturalism..

This thread is about evidence for beliefs.. subjective, objective, or anecdotal. Everybody believes something about the nature of the universe.. even absurdism or ignorance.

I see arguments AGAINST other's opinions expressed with passion and intensity, but few individual beliefs/opinions expressed, and certainly not evidenced.

Its just a short visit to existentialism.. nobody has to stay here...

 

I've experienced things that I might consider, if we are being poetic, "mystical" or "spiritual," but I wouldn't call them supernatural. For example, I've frequently experienced an intense feeling of oneness and interconnectedness with the natural world around me. It was profoundly meaningful to me, but I don't see anything supernatural about it.

 

I had a near death experience in which I met God - I think !? Who can tell whether or not some dream has any basis in reality, but this was some strange friggen dream .. and of others who have had n/d experiences a whole lot tell the same or similar story.

Sure there was the light .. moving into the light but the strange part was the voice asking me if I wanted to stay .. or return. I was young 11 or 12 and said I wanted to go back. I woke up the next morning - the ailment was gone - and life resumed. I understand that the mind can dream some crazy stuff but it was the voice that I have yet to explain ... "Should I stay or Should I go" The Clash

This may be part of the reason I believe in some kind of God however, - being a scientist - a dream doesn't cut it.

Proofs (albeit with a few but I think valid assumptions):

First the proof that existence is eternal.

Fact - there is a finite probability that matter and energy could one day configure itself in such a way such that it gains knowledge of its own existence. Further there is also a finite probability that this configuration of matter and energy is the one that is YOU.

How do I know this ? YOU exist. In order for you to exist there had to be a finite probability of this event happening.

Assumption - Time is infinite. If this assumption is true - in an infinite amount of time - all finite probabilities happen .. not just once but, an infinite number of times.

Now things are going to get strange. Self awareness - where does it come from ? What is it. Is it the energy or the matter .. or some interaction between the two. If we go to the subatomic level matter and energy transform one into the other. Matter is then just another state of energy - so I will just call it energy from here on.

So one day - some configuration of energy realized that it was - opened its eyes and realized "I am here". This is quite preposterous .. but - we are here. The energy started to think.

Now there is no explaining this but there is another part. OK ... so these thoughts started to happen. Great - wonderful but, how did those thoughts manage to manifest themselves into physical reality - because that happened too.

Hold out your hand - now move your index finger on your right hand. Now explain to me how this happened ? You willed it and it happened. OK Fine, but how did this happen the first time - not the first time for you but - the first time. How was a thought able to make something move - manifest itself into physical reality.

So you have electrons whirling around .. and one day patterns start to develop which we recognize as thoughts. How did those thoughts manage to figure out how to make your finger move ?

Note however this ability is restricted to your body ... You can will your finger to move but you can not will an object external to your body to move. Well - at least I cant. Now we can say - You are not connected to that external object but, actually you are. There is no actual boundary between your body and your surroundings ( but I digress and that would take a while to explain) or at least there are interconnections between you and the environment.

My definition of a God is a being who's will is not restricted to the boundary of some human like body. An entity that - through force of will - can make things happen on an external basis - kind of.

The reason I say kind of is that if the configure of matter and energy that is your body knows it exists - and can manifest the will into physical reality within your body .. what if energy itself knows it exists .. and the universe is one big body. This will could then manipulate everything in the universe - just like you wiggling your finger.

On a dark clear night outside of the city - when one gazes up at the stars - it looks like a big brain. Why ? Because it is a big brain !!!

Thus ends the formal part of my proof. If energy is aware of its existence on a micro level - then it must be aware of its existence on a macro level.

Think of a Tree. Does a tree think - is a tree aware that it exists. We know that a tree responds to external stimulus so there is awareness on some level. A tree can also manifest will into physical reality by this response to external stimulus .. it is just on a way lower level.

What about my cat .. of course my cat knows it exists .. in fact my cat talks - it just does not have the physical vocal chords to do human speech but kid yourself not - when my cat wants something it lets me know.

Now imagine an entity that has abilities that are far greater than a human ... like a human is to a tree but where the human is the tree ...an entity that has learned to use its will to manifest itself on the external environment. That would be like a demi God ..

Now think of an ant... a tiny little creature with a tiny little brain - how is it that an ant can do what it does ?

Now think of a bacteria - a single cell. This cell however can do some amazing things .. it swims around searching for food, large diverse populations of bacteria create complex structures known as a biofilm. The biofilm can do things that a single bacterial can not and there is communication within the biofilm known as "quorum sensing". Strange but true. The biofilm is then more than the sum of its parts - it has an awareness- it responds to external stimulus - similar but on a higher level than that of a tree.

You may not realize this but the bacteria in your body (and there are 9 bacterial cells for every one human cell - A human cell is much bigger than a bacterial cell so volume wise you are more human than bug - by the numbers ? .. sorry if this disturbs you) react to your thought patterns. You can alter the bacterial activity in your body by your thoughts. (This is not pseudo science by the way - it is a proven fact and we know how it works).

So then - Existence is eternal and God exists - just do not count on this God directly interfering in your life anytime soon. I have prayed and prayed to win the lottery but it has not yet happened.

 

I have experienced several highly improbable events that, I suppose, could be understood as supernatural. Otoh I, and lots of other people have experienced improbably bad outcomes... like churches being torn up by a tornado.

As I understand it, with a large enough sample size, even apparently improbable events happen fairly often. As it happens quite a few people feel better to think that improbably good outcomes are supernatural blessing... while practically no one attributes improbably bad outcomes to anything other than bad luck or amazing coincidence

There have been millennia where people did not understand natural events and blamed some supernatural causality. Now we are pretty sure that all those floods, famines and plages were entirely naturally caused. I see no reason to believe that todays improbable events “prove” anything supernatural..... much as we might like it to be so

 

My wife is from China and her cousin had a boyfriend who was a psychology student and was very charming and I found him to be very nice and likable. Her cousin's mom didn't like him because he didn't have a career and asked around a few Buddhist soothsayers and asked them if he was right. No matter who she asked their turtle shell readings and whatever proved negative and it seems like none of them said he was any good. Well, it just turned out that he had been cheating on her for the past half-year and even sat her down with the woman he had been cheating with and explained he was breaking up now. He has cut off any communication with anyone in her family. I guess Buddha was right. There was zero sign that he was a jerk but Buddha knew all along.

 

I think this is an astute and important observation.

The non-religious part of the debate are not actually interested in showing that there is no god. They are interested in stopping a bunch of stuff which is associated with religion, like people rejecting modern medicine or the Vatican defending abusive priests, but they are not actually interested in introducing anything associated with there being no god.

For instance, let's say some interpretation of Deism was true. A god created the universe, but it has no interest in morality, it didn't have an interest in the Jews, nor did it have a son. On paper, that's closer to Christianity than non-religion, but in practice, it's closer to the non-religious. It is still in line with the non-religious criticism against the Vatican and similar. There is no point in arguing for beliefs beyond the rejection of existing religious traditions.

When people cast doubt upon religious ideas, the argument isn't "so then the there-is-no-god idea wins by default", it's "how should we live/govern/be, given that we don't have any reliable information?".

 

yes, that is what religion is, when the belief regards quality concerns to be more specific, any considered action (religion or not) connects to a belief.
If you believe that you will not freeze to death running around without proper clothing (not religion in this sense) therefore you do so when its 40below, that action is in fact proof and irrefutable evidence of your belief. For or of does not determine focus in this case.

Supernatural
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The supernatural is something that cannot be explained by scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Every conclusive thought is a belief, not to be confused with the procedure or substance of the thought.

Probably cant help you with the breakdown, however as an example, neo atheists are very closed lipped about their world view presumably because they are very little different than the greater majority of world views held by the religious, views that choose to ignore the fact were bred into them, yet they claim it as their own.

 

A personal experience is not "evidence" for an extrodinary claim, like a magical event. You should add this option to your poll.

 

Looks like there are 3 of us so far who have said "yes".

 

You are an astute philosopher @Swensson .

You are aware of the proofs of God by Aquinas.

Ergo Deism is virtually assured from a philosophical perspective otherwise you arrive at a plethora of philosophical contradictions.

If there were no God it would be necessary for Mankind to invent One, just as Voltaire pointed out.

As far as your views or assumption on "a Son" it would not surprise me if a Deist God wanted a son.

Doesn't everyone want a son? Why would a God of any kind whether Deist or Theist not also?

 

It is a very short list of humans who have seen God that we know of:

- Moses

- Elijah

- Mary Of Nazareth

- Peter, James, John

- St. Paul

And there are probably quite a few more whom we do not know of.

If you have not seem Him/Them, then all you can do is remain open minded either way. Faith will be a comfort to you in the meantime.

If/when you do meet Him/Them, you will probably be surprised, just like Jesus said about a thief in the night. And it will then change all your views about everything. Your responsibility to be upright and good will become infinite. And God will tell you to keep it to yourself because nobody would believe you anyway if you told them.

 

Of course, no rational person should believe any of those people saw gods.

 

I think those pretty much fall apart with the modern understanding of the universe.

Such as?

Clearly mankind did, and not just one but thousands.

Humans want a son because any species that doesn't want to procreate necessarily dies off. A god would have no need to procreate and the concept of a son is not only not necessary, it doesn't even make any sense.

 

I thought it was said that God had a son to demonstrate his existence or something? I am not deep into it, I expect there are theists here that know why there was a son far better than I do, just ran across that in reading somewhere.

 

I can confirm that supernatural phenomena occur: every so often the earth moves.