Exclusive: US finalizing plans to send Patriot missile defense system to Ukraine

Is there an echo in here?

And how long are you going to make me wait before you tell me exactly what part of my comments you disagree with?

Is there a point you'd like to make or are you just stalling for time?

I am here to tell you that you are wrong.

Scared, are you? Yes, you know instinctively that your false information is about to get a royal thrashing. So let's have your up-to-date opinion on your initial comment ....

Have you given in to total capitulation already? Do you think if you lie on your back I'll pity you and scratch your stomach? Come on, Big Fella, let's hear what sort of contrary remarks you have about my post. What is it I am "ignorant" about and where is your motivation for saying that I "don't understand the topic" of Vietnam? This is a challenge. Put up your dukes and let's see what you are made of. Don't go AWOL, tough guy.

 

I never said that the Budapest Memorandum was mutual defense agreement. I scanned the posts preceding and do not mind any posts by anyone else claiming it to be a mutual defense pact. I did state in a post above and other posts that the Budapest memorandum is an “agreement “ that lack the teeth required to enforce it. The words are feel good words such as respecting sovereignty ( includes borders) not engaging in economic warfare are just that toothless feel good statements if not backed up with force. The agreement in essence says that the signatories “should” do the right thing. It is not a specified defense agreement since it lacks specific defense actions to be taken rendering it in my opinion useless. It calls for Ukraine’s sovereignty to be respected in spirit - useless. I think that we agree on that point. I do not recall posts claiming it to be a mutual defense agreement.

 

True but I like to give the benefit of the doubt just in case it was all a misunderstanding and there really is a good point that can be debated on somewhere in there. I mean, that's why I'm on this site after all.

 

The GOP House will not want to be seen abandoning freedom fighters to the forces of tyranny.

 

They are the ones that matter.

 

OK we seem to agree on the actual reality of the Budapest memorandum.

 

That could prove to be the case. In matters this grave, our elected reps need to record a vote.

 

I'm not "running" my mouth....merely stating my viewpoint.

1)What are we doing?
- assisting Ukraine to defend itself....reinforcing Europe.
2)Why?
-Dwarfstan has limited vision....needs an attitude adjustment.
3)What are the goals?
-dissolution of Russian Federation....the die has been cast. See my current thread.
4)How will we know when mission accomplished?
-when Mafialand is declawed/defanged.
5)Mission creep?.....no one knows for sure.
6)what are risks?....hopefully some Russkis get a few brain cells and don't blow themselves up?
7)Military means best option?....so far it's working.....40% of Mafiosi military destroyed.
Costs??....there's costs to everything.
9)Many Americans seem supportive of the actions taken.

I'm not panicking....seems you are though.
I've never strayed from my position since Day 1 here.

Anything else?

 

Well, let's have a look at your post and let folks determine that for themselves.

Exactly my point. Your goal is the military destruction of Russia. That's war. Only Congress can legitimately commit the American People to war.

Our National Defense Comes First. If you want to spend your own blood and treasure going abroad for monsters to destroy, knock yourself out, but, for the US to commit to that, requires Congressional Authorization, and hopefully they use that time to carefully and publically make a sensible assessment of our goals, means, and potential risks.

ACCOUNTANTS ARE BAD AT WARTIME MATH: “We’ve discussed the West’s almost criminally neglected stockpiles – unready for anything but the most limited or short war – for the better part of two decades. The Russo-Ukrainian War has once again brought it into stark relief.”

“This is hard, because unlike sexy things displacing water and making shadows on ramps, ammunition and expendables are hidden away in bunkers out of sight … and if your peacetime military and diplomats do their job, will never be used. However, when you need them, the need is existential.”

https://cdrsalamander.substack.com/p/meeting-the-demand-signal

'The U.S. has sent 13 years worth of Stinger production and five years worth of Javelin production to Ukraine'.

 

Why? We're not at war.

 

I think thier use is now more narrow in scope, The way russia used them is certainly obsolete. The tank needs to be supported by infantry and air defense elements

 

That's the same line that was used in Vietnam.

'United States involvement in the Vietnam War began shortly after the end of World War II, first in an extremely limited capacity and escalated over a period of 20 years. Troop involvement peaked in April 1969, with 543,000 American combat troops stationed in Vietnam.'

 

.....you'd better tell the Russians that they want to nuke Yellowstone and turn the northern hemisphere into a super-volcano



oh woe....oh my oh my.....now I think this is a worrying development!! This is a serious escalation and I think you lot need to speak to your lawyers and make sure your affairs are all in order call your congressmenwomenpeople @Lil Mike now you can panic!! I mean nuking all those critters in yellowstone is ....well just barbaric....I mean what have they got against all those buffalo and cute fluffy snow foxes!!




hmmm......that'll piss off Greta Thunberg.....I mean what will she have to moan about now!!! These Russian's just don't think about the consequences of their actions....sheeesh



...good to know!!!

 

We're not at war.
Slinking away from aiding Ukraine would be a major strategic error
Opinion by George F. Will

 

There is no humanitarian purpose to refusing a political-diplomatic solution in favour of war. So I am assuming that this Georgie boy owns stock in the Military-Industrial Complex.

I don't really know why @Zorro named similarities to the Vietnam war but if he is speaking about what I've just written then he is absolutely right.

 

Sounds just like Vietnam. Link me to a George Will article where he warns that backing into Vietnam without an open congressional debate and the support the American People was going to end with over 50,000 dead Americans, a nation fractured, and us evacuating from the roof of the Embassy as the enemy that defeated us was closing in?



I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm also not saying he's right. That's the point of honest open debate. It allows everyone to see the strengths and weaknesses of their points when they put them into the arena of ideas with the expectation of vigorous debate.

I'm saying that with a clear understanding the goals, costs and risk, we need an informed national commitment from the American People, expressed through Congress with a recorded vote.

Here's another problem. Are these appropriations for Ukraine special appropriations, or general appropriations that will then be subject to the multiplication of baseline budgeting from now until the end of time, as if we were forever going to be engaged in this war, or one similar?

 

We've already had that expressed through Congressional votes for aid to Ukraine.

 

Yes. This Congress has happily shoveled over the money. I notice that you didn't answer whether you had any concerned that the amounts were now in the baseline budget rather than approved as standalone appropriations. Do you give any part of a damn about the fiscal health of the nation?

 

I have routinely supported higher taxes to fund our government. Money spent on Ukraine is, in my view, a sound investment in freedom. I suspect some Ukraine spending has been reprogramming, some has been supplemental appropriations and some may have gone into the baseline. I don't care.

 

None of it has been special appropriations.

And, I can't help you with your lack of care about only expropriating from the American People those funds that are actually needed for the self-defense of the United States. That doesn't support the concept that you actually give a damn about the American People other than their utility as a cash-cow for the DOD.

 

They Abrams can run on different fuel types. Just not as efficient and lowers power slightly.

 

I don't share your narrow (and strategically untenable) view of self-defense. When we help the Ukrainians defend their freedom we defend our own.

 

Fake News. You are pretending that your lack of concern for the resources of the American People is a 'virtue', it's not. And since you have dodged this question a few times, I'll explain further and give you a fair opportunity to respond.

Even if we stipulate that the $20B we have spent on Ukraine was a wise investment in the Self Defense of the United States, by not passing it as a separate appropriation, that $20B is now in the baseline budget of the DOD, which means that it will grow, every year, by the increase in US population * the inflation rate, into perpetuity. That means we are now going to be funding, for the rest of time, or until the baseline is cut, which rarely happens, every damn year until the end of time. Was that your intent? It's easily avoided, which is what Dubya did by funding the Iraq and Afghanistan war via separate appropriations, deliberately, so that those extra costs, above and beyond ordinary costs, would not forever become part of the baseline budget.

You indicated that you could care less. Was that your intent or were you just unaware of what has happened as a result of not passing these items as a separate appropriation?

 

I spent decades in the federal government; I'm quite well aware how it's funded. The difference about which you claim to be so concerned doesn't matter for future budgeting because other factors have more impact. This year, Congress provided about $50B more than Biden requested.

 

Your long years in the federal government shows. $20B always matters. Your dismissiveness about the resources of the American People is simply your view. I don't think much of it, but, it's a free country, so enjoy your "I don't give a ****" attitude when it comes to forcibly appropriating the finances of the American People.

There are far too many people in the federal government who don't give a damn about the American People, other than as cash cows for their various schemes.