Govt 'too willing to risk Indonesia ties'

And I also don't see the relevance of this as well, BUT as CAT wants to continue to draw the topic away from the OP I guess we have to talk about these things.

As said before about this issue is that people ignore everybody else in the Asylum seeker debate to justify their political perspective of wanting to FEEL better about themselves. They continue to try and score political points over this issue by pretending they are the only people who are desperate and in need of assistance. They continue to point to UN refugee policy and pretend it supports these actions when in fact it condemns illegal actions.

Fact is by posting such (cherry picking as ZIG puts it) clear demonstration of hypocrisy and pretence is shown. They cherry pick this issue and ignore the greater issues because they believe it shows HIGHER moral standing.

Sure there are those who are directing their efforts to STOP asylum seekers. BUT MAJORITY are focused on stopping the exploitation and death of asylum seekers by people who care nothing for the cargo they carry. When people continue to justify the illegal action of people smugglers by using Asylum seekers simply show they care nothing of the people but more to making themselves feel higher moral standing than those around. Problem is, the demonstration shows the worst of these people...

 

Garry,
to get to the point;
Its not your innermost intention to sort out people smugglers, your real intention is to stop foreigners from different backgrounds with different skin color and different religions entering Australia.
Well, I am not concerned about that.
But hey, I am also not a racist, pretending its all about the smugglers....
Sorry if we need to get a bit more frank here.
Cheerio

 

To be perfectly frank, this is about financial opportunistic people pretending they are refugees, by hood-winking a very intellectually naive stupid country.

300 politicians in Canberra have had far too much power for far too long, and its time the Australians people stood together and demanded a voice in what is happening in their own country. This includes whether or not they want their country swamped by financial opprotunistic pretend refugees. The people of Australian do have a voice, and it's called a referendum. The people SHOULD demand referendums on issues on refugees that effect everyone in this country. By politicians own reports; there is an estimated 1 million people waiting for low cost public housing, and another estimated 300,000 homeless, but these politicians seem to completely ignore these statistics, and allow over 20,000 refugees into this country every year.

Where are these refugees being housed? In the homes that Australians are on waiting list for years to get, and the homeless that sleep under the stars every night. What a pathertic bloody country and population, who would prefer to house refugees/strangers, rather than their own homeless people and people waiting on accomodation lists for years.

The mentality of this country by not standing up and protecting and helping its own people first, makes me sick to my stomach.

 

You don't know much do you, each post just shows you as more ignorant than the previous one. But everyone can see that. LMAO

 

you just keep ranting about the same thing, poor fellow, I truly feel for you. It has been explained a thousand times to you, can't you read, you keep posting THE SAME ARGUMENT, over and over again. An estimated 300 000, ok, so even if the asylum seekers who come by boat are given public housing, that would only affect about 1% the public housing. Not a lot of affect. So tell the truth why you don't want them.

 

WOW, You have such GREAT insight into people you don't even know. Your problem still remains with your so called point, is you care nothing for people who are left to rot overseas waiting for a response from Australian government while you bleat on about people in BOATS.

So you would be WRONG.

Actually that is true, YOUR only concern is how you look. Fact is you care nothing for anybody unless it is something you believe will make YOU look good.

All can see who is pretending and the fact you NOW want to say you’re not racist adds to that pretence. As NOBODY has stated anything about race, but you have to defend such, points to one thing…

So far you have not gotten past your own prejudice, so pretending to be MORE FANK is another complete fabrication. I have demonstrated (with your help) the pretender pose you put forward. How about you show your claimed belief of MY intentions or thoughts on Asylum seekers??? I believe you will simply deflect as per usual and continue to pretend you care about asylum seekers. The fact remains you are willing to allow people to wallow in far worse conditions else were in the world who wait for Australia to answer their request so you can make yourself feel good.

Talk about shallow and frivolous people who care NOTHING about others.

 

Yes talking about "shallow and frivolous people who care NOTHING about others" hello Garry. Lets start with your first comment here, I know it's not my post, but by your comments I am a dumb ass so I better have it explained. How is being concerned for one group of asylum seekers showing he feels "nothing for people who are left to rot overseas waiting for a response from Australian government". Your not making sense. Please explain

 

Here is an idea. Let's try to save the asylum seekers, imprison the crew (they are criminals), process the asylum seekers, there is a 90% chance they are genuine, try not to declare war on Indonesia (or any other country) and increase our refugee intake more inline with our ability.

 

For such an educated person you proclaim, you show far greater ignorance than a school child.

Perhaps if you read back through the thread it will bite you on the arse. Somehow, I don't think it will, but I am not here to educate you... IF you cannot see the hypocrisy and pretence, that is not my problem. However, MANY others do see that pretence and what it really shows...

 

Here is an idea, let us fly to Indonesia and lock up all those people smugglers... Oh wait a minute... THAT would be like breaking Indonesian sovereignty... Here is another idea... let us deter the asylum seekers from getting on those boats, let us process them when they apply to Australian embassy (as many have)... No??? WHY NOT??? Would be great idea to stop people from drowning.

 

You copy and pasted an entire irrelevant article, which I'm sure is against the forum rules anyway, so don't complain that a direct response to it is "irrelevant" to the thread. If it's so irrelevant, you shouldn't have posted it in the first place. As you did however, and as it's a common "myth" that the number of boat arrivals is trivial compared to plane arrivals, I responded with the government's graph from the report which the statistics are from to show the context.

 

Explain then what your graph means, how does it relate to the percentage of boat arrivals vs the number of plane arrivals which you claim it does?

 

In 2008-9 there were 161 IMAs.

In 2011-12 there were 17, 202 IMAs.

That is an increase by over a factor of 100.

In 2011-12 there were 7036 Non IMA Protection visa applications (plane arrivals), less than half the number of IMAs.

In 2012-13 there was 13 108 IMAs in 6 months.

Also, the percentage of arrivals by boat that are later found to be refugees is artificially inflated by a "screening" process in which they interview IMAs and then decide based on an interview whether to initiate the refugee application process.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-...enings-dangerous-former-official-says/4744628

There were 17 202 IMAs in 2011-12, but only 7379 "IMA refugee status determinations commenced".

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/public...um/_files/asylum-stats-march-quarter-2013.pdf

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam...iamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1314/BoatArrivals

 

You have been busy haven't you??? Would it help the point that MAJORITY of asylum seekers are flown in by government(usually)??? Since the huge influx of boats because of the ALP/Greens fiasco. I would assume that this figure has changed dramatically.

 

I would think the Aust Government would only fly in refugees. The plane arrivals will be people who come on a temporary visa, and then apply for a protection visa.

I would expect boat arrivals would drop to about zero pretty quickly if they are towing back boats. In which case plane arrivals would again vastly outnumber boat arrivals. But then I would also expect the public and the media to calm down when this happens.

 

I have my suspicions that the Liberal/National Government have had their own suspicions that the Indonesian Government is somehow financially involved with the people smuggling industry. That's why they have never wanted to stop the people smuggling trade, because they get financial kick-backs from the smugglers. The smugglers also help the Indonesian Government to eliminate additional human garbage from their country. Talk about killing two birds with one stone!!

Once the smuggling trade from Indonesia has be eradicated, then genuine refugees can be processed, but only after Australians have food & a roof over their heads first.

 

Local governments I'm sure are involved, as are local police, Indonesia has big problems with corruption, just like most other countries in the world.

 

I am absolutely positive that many government officials are gaining financially out of this trade. How high that goes is questionable but I also believe that the country benefits financially indirectly. While Indonesia is in the state it is, there is no way there government will rock the government income. Unlike Australia where the populace is directly and indirectly taxed at great rates, the Indonesian government is not as prevalent in the country as Australia at the highest level. Without bringing something to the table to substitute that loss of indirect income DON'T expect the Indonesian government take any real action to prevent it. If they find an area that is not contributing they will use them as examples of doing something placating the numb nuts of Australia, while protecting those that make contributions using the illegal outside money.

This is one reason a proposal to create an off shore processing facility in Indonesia is more viable to inject funds into their economy to cover the loses of shutting down an industry (illegal one at that) who also add to the economy. However, MORE emphasis should be made to reduce the waiting period (prioritising) to people in refugee camps overseas...

 

Individual criminals and corrupt officials will make a lot of money, but it's ludicrous to suggest that the Indonesian economy is dependent on the "indirect" profits from people smuggling, especially when there were only very high numbers of boats for one year. The Indonesian's don't want the illegal smuggling trade because they have huge problems with drug trafficking.

Indonesia and Malaysia were already cooperating with us by tightening visa requirements for Iranians, which was one of the major problems in the first place.

They're just not interested in doing anything for refugees.

 

The Government is not dependent on indirect profits of the people smuggling trade, they are benefiting from it. As this trade is turning over condsiderable amounts of money which DOES have a flow into the Indonesia economy. To say they don't want people smuggling trade is considerably niave due to the fact that they do very little to stop it. Restrict visas, create a law to arrest them, BUT really these things are only done to placate Australia. After all very little policing of such laws AND the fact they use these so called laws and restrictions as political leverage to deal with Australia shows MORE to the point they don't care about them...

Well that is very questionable, as Indonesia continue to use that very issue to political advantage against Australia. I still remain in my belief that Australia is to blame for this with the bleeding heart populace and the fact the government in pandering to that bleeding heart group, who don't want to actually look to better methods and agreements that would deter the boats while addressing the Asylum seeker problem head on.

Why is it that these parties only want band aid measures in addressing these issue. Many try and state it is because Indonesia will not work with Australia in REAL action to stop this trade. Fact is, their government are NOT so ingrained in the nation as compared to Australia so their funding is no were near as vast. That is one reason for pointing out that if Australia wants to REALLY put forward policy to address the situation they need to replace ANY income lost.

While Many complain that Indonesia is getting Australian aid, they miss the point that this is not exactly a rich country. Aid is not abundant and really Australia should be looking at getting better returns from any moneys they send out. While the country, as a hole, has considerable wealth government has not got the financial position to address such issues of poverty and welfare. I guess the welfare nation forget this point when they are sitting reliant on a welfare they really believe the rest of the world is in the same position as themselves. Fact is, in Indonesia a considerable amount of the population just go without. Unlike Australians…

ONE way is to look to such projects that make long term return such as processing centre or something of kind. That is one point I originally made about working with the government, instead of spending BILLIONS to detain and process people who use illegal methods to get to Australia, spend that in places of ORIGIN to process and house these people. WHAT government would turn their back on that injection to their economy... The problem will be that the bleeding hearts will not see the value in that and work considerably hard to stop the money... Diplomacy would be against Australia here, as the last decade has shown, Australia cannot be trusted to do what they say...

That is a real issue, but you can see why when these pretenders show the same and would rather support illegal trades to pretend they care about these people, as seen in this thread alone.

 

You keep asserting that the government benefits from the people smuggling trade. What is your justification? It's not like criminals pay taxes.

People smuggling is a huge world wide problem.

The Indonesia government simply doesn't have the power to stop it imo.

I'm surprised that anyone would think that the Indonesian's would spend what little money they have to police their 17 000 islands for smugglers, when millions of their own citizens don't have even the basic essentials.

They have tightened visa restrictions, at our request, and prior to the whole spying debacle were cooperating with police and defence operations.

Australia is perfectly capable of stopping it from our end by just simply not allowing boat arrivals to settle in Australia and sending them offshore to PNG. As soon as they realise they're not going to end up in Australia, then the journey is pointless. There's no need to be violating Indonesia's territory, that was only ever going to (*)(*)(*)(*) them off.

 

If you look at the statistics. The trade balance between Indonesia and Australia over the past decade, indicates it favours Indonesia by nearly half a billion every year. Plus they have been getting $800 million per year in tax payer funded aid. What have Australians received from Indonesia in return for this bountiful free aid over the decades? Nothing.

When Australia suffered the natural disaster of flooding in Victoria and Queensland, the Indonesian Government and its people gave the Australian victims an insulting $1 million in aid. No one will ever convince me that Indonesia could not have afforded to give the Australian flood victims more than a paltry $1 million in aid, considering Australian tax payers gave them $800 million in free aid the previous year.

Australian tax payers are giving out $5billion every year to other countries in free aid, and when the Australian people need help and assistance, what do we get from these countries in return that we have helped; a smack in the face.

I think it's time those $billions was used to help Australians first, and when Australia no longer has poverty and homelessness, then we can begin our international charity work of donating. If the UN wants to be the world hero's, then let them put their hands into their own pockets; it's the people who are funding these rich UN bureaucrats lifestyles anyway, so what would they know about being poor or doing without.

 

I agree that the smuggling trade could be eliminated permanently in ONE hit. Announce to the world, any boat arrivals will NEVER be settled in Australia.

Take away the destination, and you take away the trade.

 

Don't they??? You assume they don't because it makes sense that they would be caught. Even in Australia CRIMINALS PAY TAX... and they don’t get caught.

However, as is Australia purchases draw tax OR do you think that people smugglers in Indonesia buy NOTHING in Indonesia employ nobody in Indonesia... Even the Australian government realise that more money injected into the economy that is not DIRECTLY taxed increases revenue by INDIRECT taxes. In Australia parody of Income tax and welfare has been met. So where does all the money come from the government spends??? If you consider it is simply company tax, I would suggest you research the breakdown of tax income in Australia.

This is true and really we could look to assisting other nations in this area but Australia needs to clean its own act up first. The main point is to take away incentive to pay people smugglers which is precisely what is intended with MOST countries that experience this issue. As I point to removing the reason for paying, people try to condemn me for, I notice that Australia is using the penalty system rather than a reward system that would work out FAR cheaper... BUT to find decent and practical solutions to stop people smuggling one MUST look to all areas that make it happen... Then Australia can look to assist other nations with this problem.

No country on its own has the power to stop it. Even though these policies of the Abbott government appear to be working, they really are not stopping the boats, they are simply slowing the boats. Boats will still come, people will still pay and people will still die. The hope in change to policy, because the boats slow is the big driver NOW because the people smugglers know that these bleeding hearts will work extremely hard for it. That hope is based on IF this happens; the reality is that while oppositions to policy that eradicates incentives are about, that hope remains. Australia does not have the power to stop them either.

That is the point isn't it??? Fact remains while they use such policy as political bargaining chips they clearly demonstrate that this issue is not a concern to them. Why would it be???

I think you had better do a little research on that cooperation with policy and defence operations. I think you might find it little different to what you believe. BUT yes they did tighten Visas (NOT restrictions), but simple to say this tightening did not really affect much at all...

This does not STOP the people smuggling at all, the evidence of such is the boat arrivals after the NEW policy was introduced. The idea is great except you need them to come by boat first... To be honest neither policy of these parties will stop the people smuggling while there are bleeding heart people who wish to turn this entire issue into asylum seeker debate. BUT both policies are designed to stop the incentive and the Coalition has kept the ALP stance (as it assists that means) and included a policy that has shown to work in the past... BOTH policies are not kind and simply penalises the WRONG people. Unfortunately, while people don’t really want to address this issue and while governments continue to use it as political point scoring this is the best Australia has got…

BUT again, it can be seen both ways, while Indonesia does very little to address an issue of Australia's with their populace breaching Australian sovereignty then Australia has every right to be pissed as well. Maybe if they get pissed enough they will come to the table and work for better solutions for all rather than play politics with the entire issue.

 

True and return for that dollar would be great. Unfortunately, it is hard to do so without detriment.

As stated you must remember that the Indonesian government is not so prevalent in the Indonesian economy. That is to say they have not got the great income from taxes and like to fund wealthy promises and line their own nests. A million dollars given to Australia could well be the equivalent to a billion, you must consider the ability for the government to find this money. When they don't tax the crap out of their people, they don't have a lot to spend and when a catastrophe happens in Australia, Indonesia still has to look after its own problems...

Again you must look to ability and worth in other nations. Far too many people only consider their own surrounding in consideration of what other nations are capable. I do agree with the UN point as they swallow billions and send very little out. They use it to convince people the world needs more of their money to survive. Australia does need to look to its own, but while bleeding hearts simply pretend they care, nothing will change...