Hate crime: Manchester Police record attacks on goths and emos

This is a very interesting move from Greater Manchester Police, and I think a very positive step in recognising the issue. Anybody who knows any members of such 'subcultures' knows how they can be treated in public by some of those who will abuse and even attack anyone or anything that doesn't 'fit in' with what they regard as 'normal', and it's time for it to be recognised that the targets of such 'hate' aren't just in the traditional categories of race, religion, sexuality, and so on.

Tolerance is freedom. Without tolerance there can be no freedom in society. If people are free to make their own choices, they have to be free to live without being harassed, abused and attacked just for making choices that other people don't happen to like for some reason. If society only allows things that are considered 'normal', there can be no freedom of choice - people have to be free from being harassed just for making personal choices that have no effect on anybody else. That is what freedom means.

 

I'm not opposed to active vigilantism. It's how small communities deal with their bullies- and remain communities.

Good luck to Manchester. Such a move requires cops on the beat. High-ideals are useless without front-line enforcers.

 

You sure the case was "because the way they were dressed" ?
Gothic communities are like 70% women so they are attracting members of societies that have a "shortage" of them like for example nazis .

 

Just try explaining what tolerance means to a chav. He couldn't spell it, let alone exercise it.

 

How far have we come ?

 

Very probably true of some of them, but then I wouldn't stereotype people who appear to be 'chavs' any more than I would any other group - I've met some perfectly decent people who are, or certainly appear to be 'chavs'.

 

Oh I agree, but a violent sub-culture doesn't respond well to education in my experience.

 

Fashion based sub cultures have always had a violent element.

The 'casuals', from the 80's, a very British culture.

[video=youtube;ajL--6MaQF0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajL--6MaQF0&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

 

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster
It's a very well known case, and there really is no doubt of that element in the motivation. It was a random attack by a bunch of teenagers on a couple of people they didn't know, purely because of the way they looked.

There's been something of a problem with that kind of thing among some particular fringe elements of hardcore punk and extreme metal in Germany and a few other parts of mainland Europe, but certainly isn't any kind of issue among 'goths' (or 'metalheads', or 'emos', or other similar/associated groups) in the UK at all.

There is an article here about goths and politics (US based):

http://www.morbidoutlook.com/lifestyle/articles/2008_11_gothpolitics.html

I would say that is broadly in line with the general political culture among 'goths' and similar associated 'subcultures' in the UK. Generally very 'socially liberal' (and would certainly have no time for any kind of nazi ideas!), and often relatively 'left wing' in some way, but other than that pretty much mainstream (with politics often not being a particularly important interest to a lot of them). It's not really inherently a 'political movement' as such at all, more interested in things like 'creativity', music, art and 'individualism', and generally they tend not to be heavily focussed on 'politics' beyond things like social tolerance, environmentalism, animal welfare and similar kinds of 'campaigns'.

 

thank you , modern young people are nothing like we used to be - and i do not mean that in a bad way , just different.

I was a goth in my youth and yes in general we were liberal but back then we used to be hedonistic rather than the pierced / black dressed / bdsm style youngsters of today.

*Don't start me talking about NBM

 

Btw.

The true Goths never wore black, and were a people that loved colour, both in dress and in their art.

 

I was a Mod back in my day.

[video=youtube;vE7otOTPkW8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE7otOTPkW8&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

 

Fashions and styles have evolved a bit in these kind of 'subcultures' over the years ('metalheads' don't even wear denim jackets with band patches on anymore!), and many of the 'alternative subcultures' are much less separate from each other than they used to be (so a term like 'goth' is used in a much less specific way than it used to be), but the basics of how people are and how they tend to think and behave as members of those 'subcultures' have remained very much the same.

 

Ach, if it was not that it would be something else.

People single out that which looks different.

 

I don't think that moving into more uniform lifestyles is beneficial for young people . I still attend metal gigs (tho no gothic parties i am in my 40's and my friends from the past are all "important goths" among young people...very disgusting) , music and people have not changed that much , goths have become too "industrial" if you know what i mean., if you don't compare old videos from Treffen to new ones.

The comment i want to make is that in many ways modern goths can be mistakenly taken for bdsm crowd .... if gays think that they have issues with society i dare any of them to try be bdsm in public for an hour.

 

Minus the mouthball...

[video=youtube;S8kPqAV_74M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8kPqAV_74M&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

 

It's not so much that the various groups have really become more 'uniform', but that they have tended to hang out together more than they used to, and see each other much more as 'friendly groups', so to speak.

Going back to the 80's, 'goths' and 'metalhead's and 'punks' and so on were very separate groups that didn't tend to associate with each other much. Goths weren't in the 'metal' clubs, and metalheads weren't in the 'goth' clubs. If you went to a big festival like the old Monsters of Rock (in the UK), for example, it was a very, very specific festival for metal bands, with one stage for metal bands, and only metal fans there. That's changed now, and the equivalent festival (Download) is now a multi-stage affair with alot of different kinds of bands, while still remaining very much rock and metal focussed. It attracts members of alot of these 'subcultures', and they get on great together, while still more or less maintaining their own 'identities'. The various groups have realised that they weren't ever really that different anyway in much of their their basis, and kind of pulled together for a sort of 'safety in numbers'. Alot of that happened through the 90's, partly as a result of some of the musical cross-fertilisation that was going on (with bands like Korn being heavily influenced by both 'metal' and 'goth' type bands).

Obviously, that has brought some cross-fertilisation of ideas (not necessarily a bad thing!), but there are still those fairly identifiable basic groups within the 'alternative scene'. Of course, to 'outsiders', they probably all look pretty much the like the same thing, all being 'wierdos', and they probably always did. 'Goth' is a term that now gets used quite commonly (mostly by 'outsiders') to describe any of these 'alternative' groups, especially any where someone happens to be wearing black for some of the time (punk, skaters, metalheads, emos, etc.), rather than that one specific group.

As for the change in fashion in terms of piercings and so on, I think that partly just reflect the fact that tattoos and piercings have become more commonplace and 'accepted' generally in society. Those that are looking to make themselves more 'individual' can no longer do so with a single, simple nose stud or whatever, so they are experimenting with more piercings in more parts of the face (and some other places, although that's not in any way restricted to any 'alternative' kind of scene either!).

This is probably the most famous picture of Sophie Lancaster:


Not quite a 'goth' in the 'traditional' sense in that photo, perhaps, but certainly consistent with the modern 'goth' style, with a hint of a 'steam punk' influence. Whether she always identified herself specifically with that term to refer to a very specific group is another question (and I don't know what bands she was listening to), but it doesn't really matter - her death led to tributes from all across the 'alternative' scenes, though (Bloodstock Metal Festival has a 'Sophie Lancaster Stage', for example), and very much enhanced the sense of camaraderie across the various 'alternative' groups.

The slogan for the campaign set up in her name is S.O.P.H.I.E., by the way, standing for "Stamp Out Prejudice Hatred and Intolerance Everywhere". That's not a message that any of the alternative groups seem to have a problem signing up to support (with the possible exception of a few neo-nutters in Germany, and a few extreme Scandinavians who really need to find something better to do than drink and get angry at the world through their long winter nights!).

 

Why should a "hate crime" be considered any differently than garden-variety assault and battery?

 

Goths? I thought they ceased to be a group in the middle ages and merged into other groups, oh wait, we're talking about the creepy freaks that dress and look as ugly and unappealing to the eye as possible in the name of some crappy self-expression thing hijacked their name? I see. But you know, we should be happy the real goths aren't around anymore because I don't think they'd be too happy to know that what they called themselves, and they were the conquerors of rome (!!) which is quite an achievement, now applies to silly pale teenager wannabe rebels. Much like the ancient romans, who called themselves the romani, wouldn't be too pleased to know that romani refers to freaking gypsies of all people now adays..

So needless to say I am not a big fan of goths of emos, and I think they should just stop being silly and be normal, I don't think they should get beaten up over it, that's taking it way too far. I think we can keep it to the level I displayed here; just showing our dissaproval of them.

 

Seriously that girl in the picture looks almost conservative the kids who killed her must be on drugs or something , at the other hand i know that the subculture is full of posers and snobs so not impossible that someone's manhood got insulted. Someone would have thought that after so many years of punks around the public has left discrimination of looks behind and we are all cool discriminating only against muslim women .
Thank you for the info about the case !

I was a teenager in the 80's and i do remember steampunk people with tattoos and piercing , new generation only added industrial googles , masks and hair prosthetics .
Gothic subculture is not centred around music since there are tons of literature , poetry and even paintings ...what do you think is the inspiration behind outfit designs ? Goths used to be hedonistic and at least 25 years ago the focus was in sex , drama and creativity with a total rejection of drugs and violence, today i don't know .

 

So people should be able to live their lives as they choose without meeting public 'disapproval' (with all of the abuse in the street and such like that goes with that) as long as they are 'being normal', then? They're OK if they are conforming to someone else's ideas of how they should look and how they should think, but deserve to be met with 'disapproval' if they decide for themselves to do something else, even though it doesn't have any negative effect whatsoever on anyone else?

That's not a free society.

Without tolerance for the choices people make, there can be no freedom.

 

People are free to think whatever the (*)(*)(*)(*) they want about others. People are free to think the Jews should be killed, people are free to think homosexuals need to be euthanized, people are free to think whatever they like so long as they don't act on it.

If someone does act on their coercive desires then there should be a little thing called equal protection of the law. Motive matters not, only action. It doesn't matter if someone murders because they want to rid the world of the Jews or because they are getting revenge for a rape, the result should be the same (within the judge's discretion).

Hate crime laws disrupt this.

 

There's always been a bit of variation inevitably with something that tends to be fairly individualistic and creative at its heart. Not all 'goths' rejected all 'drugs', for example, although most certainly rejected 'hard' drugs completely, and I've never met a 'goth' remotely interested in perpetrating any kind of violence (the media association of mentally ill killers being 'goths' because they often wore black clothes and didn't seem to 'fit in' with the 'in crowd' is not entirely accurate, to say the least!). The whole 'goth' type scene, as far as I can see, is still very much focussed on 'creativity' and 'individualism' - music, art, their own clothing/piercing style, poetry, jewellery, and so on. Maybe a bit less of the 'sex' stuff than there was, because that kind of thing probably seems a bit more risky than it was back in the day!

Their musical taste tendencies have probably got a bit wider (and 'heavier') these days, too, with the increased cross-fertilisation with other 'alternative' groups and genres - lots of 'goth types' got into the Nu Metal stuff (Korn, Slipknot, etc), and that trend seems to have continued - there's less musical barriers between these 'alternative' groups now, and it's considered perfectly normal and acceptable to like The Cure and Slipknot and Consumed (and alot of the goths ended up going along with the more 'emo' stuff like My Chemical Romance too, which seems now to have drawn some of them into the Metalcore stuff (Bring Me The Horizon, etc.)) - The Mission headlined the third stage at the Download rock/metal festival last year (while Metallica were on the main stage), and drew a good crowd.

In many ways they are very much direct descendants of the 'hippies', but far less psychedelic drug and radical politics orientated, and now more integrated within a general metal/punk/alternative community.

 

That's exactly where 'hate crime' laws come in, though (in the UK at least) - sentencing, judge's discretion, and mitigating/aggravating factors. If someone attacks someone in revenge for a rape (or even incites others to attack people), that could be considered as a 'mitigating' factor, but if they attack them purely because of the colour of their skin, or their sexuality, or their religion, or the way they choose to dress and the music they like, that's a different kind of motivation, and that can be considered an 'aggravating' factor that has an influence on the sentence (because it is particularly nasty and odious to attack someone not because of something they have done or some argument or something 'personal' or whatever, but just purely because you don't happen to like the demographic group they are part of). People get convicted of the attack, but the judge then has to take into account the circumstances that led to the attack, and simple bigotry or 'hatred' of a group is a part of what should be considered. That's all that 'hate crime' laws really do - make it clear that such attacks against random, innocent people on the basis of pure bigotry are utterly unacceptable, and tell judges to take that into account as part of the factors when they consider sentencing.

'Hate crime' laws aren't 'thought police' laws - they are about considering the the aggravating circumstances of actions that have actually been taken.

 

Hate crimes are codified into law, a judge's discretion must act from within the law: he cannot declare a race evil and punish them disproportionately, similarly in the absence of hate crime laws judges would sentence based on chances of rehabilitation and danger to society, these factors are not excluded in a system absent of hate crime legislation, only the unequal protection of the law is.