Here's a tough one for y'all.

Discussion in 'Ethnic & Religious Conflicts' started by cerberus, Dec 9, 2018.

  1. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    Next Tuesday I had an out-patient appointment to remove a pyogenic granuloma (a harmless skin lesion) on the underneath of my right-hand ring finger. Now I've been obsessing about it for c. 7 weeks, a) because I would need a digital block (a local anaesthetic numbing of the finger) and b) because digital blocks are not only extremely painful because of the propinquity of the injection needle to bone owing to lack of soft tissue in a finger, but often ineffective; so I was freaking out by imagining the pain of having it excised essentially sans anaesthetic by the 'curette and cauterisation' procedure, which speaks for itself, viz. a curette is a razor sharp spoon-shaped surgical implement, and the cauterisation is the subsequent sealing of the blood supply vessel by direct-contact electrical heat (a kind of sophisticated soldering iron) to close the vessel thereby preventing the return of the condition (not guaranteed, but probable). To come to the point:

    Imagining how it would be on the day, and knowing the number of foreign staff in the NHS these days, I wondered how I'd feel about it if I went into the room for the procedure and the doctor was wearing a full-face hijab. I decided that if I did, I'd excuse myself and walk out, thence to have it done privately at a cost of about £1000. Now that doctor might have been the best in the country at doing the procedure, but I still felt uncomfortable about it. Does that make me racist? I've never thought of myself as being racist, but I've been wondering if, deep down, I am. Anyone got any thoughts on any of that?

    Ps. 3 days ago the nodule detached itself, and in my visit yesterday to report it to my dermatology-specialising GP, he confirmed that in three or four weeks I'd never even know I'd had it. But it got me thinking about the ethical aspect - and actually my GP is (I think) Indian or a Pakistani and sure knows his stuff.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  2. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    No bites? Well I did say it's a tough one.
     
  3. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    If it was the hijab that bothered you, then you're either a total fashion nut or you're a culturist... not a racist.

    If it bothered you that he was Arab, or just that he wasn't white, then you're racist.

    What specifically bothers you about the hijab?
     
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  4. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    When someone is talking to me I prefer to see their face, and not as if they're peering at me from the inside of a mailbox. And male Arabs don't wear hijabs, full-face or otherwise!
     
  5. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    I think it makes you a religious bigot but it is possible that you are a racist too.
     
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  6. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It’s worth noting that wouldn’t happen in the NHS. All Trusts where it’s even a consideration have policies against staff covering their faces, certainly when dealing with patients. Incidentally, most of the foreign staff in the NHS aren’t Muslim and most of the ones who are don’t wear veils at any time. This would be way down on my list of concerns about foreign NHS staff, itself low on my list of NHS concerns in general.

    Also, the hijab is just a headscarf. The veil is called a niqab while the full head-to-toe covering is the burka. I think it’s worth being accurate if we’re going to discuss the topic, especially when there is already a widespread lack of understanding about it (some of which is actively used by some to propagate negative propaganda).

    You’re just as likely to get a foreign doctor in private practice of course (often the same individuals), with less limitations on what they wear too.

    Obviously “racist” isn’t quite the right word but I’m sure there is some underlying measure of discrimination involved. Everyone has that to some extent but we can choose how we act on it. There is also a legitimate concern or discomfort about not seeing a person’s face but I suspect that if when you went in your doctor was already wearing a surgical mask, while it would make you uncomfortable, you wouldn’t react as much as you would with a (perceived) Muslim face covering. That’d be the literal definition of discrimination.
     
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  7. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    Thanks, some good points there - except it's highly unlikely that I'd ever see a surgeon wearing a surgical mask outside of an operating theatre? :mrgreen:
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  8. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    Thanks for your valuable input. :roll:
     
  9. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    You asked, don't go getting all offended about the responses my feathered friend.
     
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  10. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    When my spouse was undergoing her transplant she was in a isolation ward for 2 weeks. Many of the nurses were from foreign nations and all of them were highly competent and knew exactly what they were doing. She received excellent care from all of them. Two in particular stand out as being the most pleasant and helpful and they were both from Africa.

    When it comes to medicine it is an international fraternity and I have yet to meet any who are not well trained in their fields.

    That you were obsessing over your own fear of pain and projecting that onto others who probably have a far better education than you do is not their problem.

    That you even entertained the idea of walking out because of your own prejudices and bigotry is very much YOUR problem.

    I do give you credit for being willing to share this personal experience and I am also willing to grant that your fear of the pain was your primary motivating factor. However if you would not have done the same had the race and/or creed of the medical professional been the same as your own is sufficient to establish that you do have an issue that you really should address.

    Most fear comes from the unknown. Had you spent time growing up, in school, working and living with people of all races and creeds you would not have this unfounded bigotry and fear of the unknown.

    The solution is to get out and mingle with people who are NOT the same as you are. That is how you will learn that we are all the same.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  11. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    Sorry, I got the impression you were being flippant when I'd expected something more analytical.
     
  12. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, I was being very serious. How else could you interpret your obvious fear of Islam?
    The lack of analysis was precipitated by the clear cut nature of your Islamophobia.
    Why else would you fear incompetance based solely on the religious garment of a fully qualified surgeon?
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  13. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    If I were to fear my surgeon based on him/her wearing a cross (after all these people don't even believe in evolution how could they know about science or pass medical exams) that would make me a religious bigot. I would be judging Christianity based on the ignorance of a small minority of that faith.
     
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  14. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    Ah. So you want to interact face to face, but can't, because theirs is covered?

    If that's all it is, I have to wonder why you would think its racist, because that sounds entirely reasonable.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  15. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What race has their face covered?
     
  16. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    None, that I know of. Thus my question.
     
  17. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Some Catholics cover their faces too.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  18. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    Okay, so you think I'm a racist, and seeking opinions was the purpose of my post. I reiterate - thanks for your input, shallow and unsophisticated as it is.
     
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    What part of 'that sounds entirely reasonable' means 'you're racist'? Perhaps you meant to quote someone else...?
     
  20. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    No it does not mean you are a racist, but you do have a problem with trusting some Muslims you see as more 'radical' and it is not based on the individual, or on reason, but generalization about them because of their dress. 'Prejudice' is the word that pops to my mind.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
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  21. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    Noted. I have no wish to engage further with you; you've given your opinion, I thanked you for it, so there's no more to be said.
     
  22. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    I'd have a problem trusting someone wearing a visor-down crash helmet if I was trying to talk to them, or wearing a balaclava, or had a paper bag over their head. Does that mean I have a prejudice against motorcyclists and people who like having paper bags over their head? Would you not feel uncomfortable interacting with just 'a pair of eyes'?? One day you might have to get used to it!
     
  23. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I have honestly not thought about it much. I trusted the Lone Ranger, Batman, and Spiderman as a kid....
     
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  24. Bush Lawyer

    Bush Lawyer Well-Known Member

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    Why?
     
  25. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    The first two wore orbital masks so most of their face was visible. The third only ever wore a full-face covering when he was 'on duty'?
     

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