Hungary's Orban Lead the Way?

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Moi621, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Donor

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    https://news.yahoo.com/hungarys-orban-vows-defence-christian-europe-192112146.html
    Hungary's Orban vows defence of 'Christian' Europe

    Budapest (AFP) - Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban launched his European elections campaign Sunday calling for voters to defend "Christian" nations against immigration, which he said led to the "virus of terrorism".

    He also announced a seven-point package of tax breaks and subsidies to encourage families to raise more children, a move he called "Hungary's answer" to its falling population instead of increasing immigration.

    He framed the vote as a choice between the "new internationalism" of pro-migration Brussels bureaucrats under the sway of "money men" such as liberal US billionaire George Soros and sovereign nation states defending tradition and Christianity.

    Announcing his seven-point programme, Orban ruled out any move to tackle Europe's declining birth numbers with higher immigration as "capitulation".

    "We don't just want numbers, we want Hungarian babies," he said, after declaring that women bearing four or more children would be exempt for life from personal income tax.

    Hungary's population has fallen below 10 million in recent years and has one of the lowest fertility rates in the OECD. An estimated half-million Hungarians meanwhile have emigrated to western Europe since it joined the EU in 2004.



    Will Hungary lead the way of European nations abandoning the E.U.?
    I seem to remember Hungary stating it would not observe the sanctions against Russia which was pretty amazing to me because Hungarians absolutely hate Russia.


    And couldn't he say, Judeo Christian?
    Consider Hungarians are more Turkic than European.



    Moi :oldman:




    No Canada-1.jpg
    Across an immense, unguarded, ethereal border, Canadians, cool and unsympathetic,
    regard our America with envious eyes and slowly and surely draw their plans against us.
     
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  2. Concord

    Concord Well-Known Member

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    Falling birth rates are a symptom of deeper economic trends that no politician has any means of combating, and would be unwise to combat anyways.
     
  3. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Japan too?

    It is a decision that places a higher value on an economically better life than raising children.
    It just might reverse with the lure of life time freedom from income tax as well as support.
    Father should also get that suspension of income tax if he is a family unit father.
    Living with mother and kids creating a healthier family unit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  4. Concord

    Concord Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. As far as major nations go, Japan and Germany are poster-children for the economic levers at play in reducing birth rates. Other nations, such as Poland and Hungary, are victims of the same levers as well as an additional one: The draw of wealthier nations to the West.
     
  5. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Holy **** that's huge! No income tax for life.

    What if a husband conceives 4 children with his wife, can he be exempt too?
     
  6. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Donor

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    That is what I propose. #3 above
    An in home, husband/father
    Not just a biological father.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  7. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    The Hungarians want to hold on to their heritage, and they have every right to do so. No one should impose anything on anyone. Soros has a university there that Orban wants to close. I don't know if he did so, or if Brussels hasn't allowed it, but one thing's certain, when you try to destroy one's identity through a liberal internationalism it will create a counter force - especially in nations that tend towards nationalism like Hungary. We saw it in Germany and how communism gave rise to the Nazi party.



    Let's face it, Orban is calling a spade a spade.

    I know Russia is giving some kind of credits, but eliminating personal income sounds great. Is that for their husbands as well, or only on their own tax which means they have to work. Not too good if you have 4 kids.

    Hungary allied itself with Russia over Ukraine.Washington can't hide from them what's going on because it's affecting the Hungarians living there. They are under as much persecution as the Russians.

    There is a section of Ukraine that belongs to Hungary, and Poroshenko instead of taking Russia's advice and federating Ukraine so it could remain intact, is persecuting everyone who refuses to give up their language and heritage.

    There are also the Russyns which have a history of persecution by the 'Galatians', and they would rather be part of Hungary than Ukraine. I think many of the conscripts that were only given 2 weeks training and used as cannon fodder were Hungarians and Russyns. I know that many Hungarian men left for Budapest so they wouldn't be drafted.



    Orban is referring to the Catholic Christian culture which is part of their identity, not to their ethnicity and foundation. This is what they want to retain.

    I looked up the Visigrad group which is Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, and WOW, look what I found. Seems like the end of the EU - but they shouldn't blame Britain for it. They should blame Germany and Brussels and the way they manipulated nations without taking the people into account.


     
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  8. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    So much filth here. Anti-semitic dog whistles at Soros (the internationalist, the financier, who pays for political support, part of an elite conspiracy) are now commonplace examples of fascism amongst conservatives today. Appeals for Catholic theocracy as well in a country like Hungary where the Catholic Church was so backward (monarchist in that pre Vatican II tradition of seeing liberal democracy as dangerous) that Hungary became an ally of Nazi Germany in WW2. Some tradition! I'll stick to the cakes in a Budapest coffee shop and you can keep all the rest thank-you very much. It really is disgusting how people in Eastern Europe have learned nothing from a history of sending other European children to death camps for nothing more than being a Jew or a Rroma (gypsy). Now they double down on that hatred which continues and add muslims to their poisonous list.

    The biggest mistake for the EU was in allowing ex-communist states to join the EU so early. They all appeared to be so eager to become good Europeans. In fact they were just after the money and the aid. Underneath, the old unreconstructed hate-mongers that were always there were still going strong, after living in the Dark Ages since 1945.

    These countries where anti-semitism, anti-Rroma sentiment and feudal prejudice went unchecked by communism (a system which only strengthened the cultural backwardness of the people it touched) are now all rejecting the EU after milking it for aid for decades. Hatred of outsiders has always been the preserve of grunting peasants and there are many of these in these wastelands. Unfortunately the betrayal of Europe by its corrupt bureaucrats has enabled this to happen.

    Outsiders make progress, upset the status quo, make inadequate people afraid, but make the world go round. That's why mediocre been-nowhere done-nothing people are so full of fear and hatred when it comes to outsiders. And their mean spiritedness too! When such outsiders are refugees (as many of our ancestors of course were at some stage) and at their weakest, then these inadequates really puff themselves up like bullies and swagger. That's what we see here, the ugly spectre of inadequate fearful people, backing hateful demagogues to turn away fellow humans in need who are fleeing persecution and looking to build their lives anew. More dead children - drowned at sea, out of mind's way.

    The EU is quite right to threaten these authoritarian regimes that are emerging. Liberal democracy is a fragile thing. It can carry within it the seeds of its own destruction if it enables populist authoritarian demagogues. The EU has to protect itself from countries who will trash the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary, restrict freedom of speech and freedom of the press, and refuse to comply with the rules of the club.

    What is tiresome is to see how this is twisted and spun in to something different again to serve the hateful objectives of American populism. This narrative that Europe is overrun with jihad (in fact the USA is far more multicultural and hooray for that) is a fabricated lie made by Americans for Americans. It helps this deceit that most Americans have never left their state. The ignorant swallowing garbage fed to them by the hateful.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  9. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Donor

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    They are a source of cheaper European labor for globalists profiteering.
     
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  10. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    I do not know if you have ever been to the former communist states or have any experience of what you speak. What I do know is that in the 1990s and since I saw what rubbish dumps these countries were. Anyone visiting Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia or Hungary would have seen the feudal conditions that existed there after decades of communism and facsim before that. Investment going into these countries was driven by the profit motive - a complete difference from the systems of bureaucratised planning that existed before. The factories built were in contrast to that state of the art showpieces, with health and safety, efficient automation and the highest wages that were available in those economies. By contrast the governments refused to invest in infrastructure or to take advantage of that cash.

    There is nothing sicker than protections populists of Left and Right sitting in their prosperous liberal democracies decrying the exploitation of people in developing countries. The alternative was to continue the brutalisation of humanity that occurred under communism and fascism. What populists in these countries are learning is that being in "the West' is not a free lunch where prosperity is given to you for nothing. It requires the same sort of efforts that have taken place in developed countries regarding the development of institutions, the assimilation of immigrants and the financing of infrastructure by the elite that happened in developed countries.
     
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  11. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    You realize of course that the unemployment among the young in many EU nations was never as high as it is today? In Italy today it is 30%, and in Greece the highly educated left for Australia, which welcomed them with open arms. Is this the prosperous liberal democracy you're speaking of?

    The Brussels and Washington controlled Tsipras wants to give migrants now the right to vote in the next election, while denying the Greeks who were forced to leave from voting. He's also in the process of giving away part of the country - thanks to George Soros liberal Open Society Foundation and his support for a greater Albania - (Muslim country of course). Now he's panicking that his great experiment is falling apart, and warned the EU that it will go the way of the Soviet Union - which by the way was another great globalist experiment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  12. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh then when a Jew is criticized for the imposition of their political views on others it's being anti-Semitism? Interesting!

    There has never been a Catholic theocracy nor a Christian one other than the Byzantine Empire - and they didn't do so bad having survived for a thousand years when Europe was in a turmoil. It's now been attributed to a volcano in Iceland that erupted and started the dark ages.

    As for Hungary being allies with Nazi Germany, it seems they weren't the only Catholics that sided with the Nazis. The Croatians and Western Ukrainians did also. The one thing they all had in common was that they all were under the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. I guess they were made to feel inferiority about their Eastern heritage, and compensated for it by being even more racist and arrogant than their masters. This held true for the Irish too.
     
  13. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Donor

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    I thought the Brits were leading the way out of the EU. Did I miss something?

    LOL - It's been a few years since the Magyars first settled in the Carpathian Basin. They've been mixin' it up a little since then.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  14. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Donor

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    @Talon

    Brits aren't as Euro as the Continental Euros are.
    After all, Brits speak English
     
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  15. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Donor

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    We (the U.S.) are not a multicultural nation. What you should be cheering is pluralism - that is what has enabled us to successfully absorb and integrate people from all over the world into a relatively cohesive society.

    Tell me, Heroclitus, why do I keep hearing Western European leaders talk about the failure of "multiculturalism" in their countries? Is it because they didn't embrace pluralism and adopted policies that have led to the retribalization of their nations?

    I don't live in Europe, which is why I'm asking you those questions, but when I see the attitudes and remarks of people such as Viktor Orban I suspect that they are rooted in the concern, if not fear, that this same problem will arise in their own nations which are shackled to the policies being decried by people such as Angela Merkel - a person who doesn't strike me as a grunting peasant or bigot.

    Perhaps, I'm wrong, but it seems to me that until the EU gets its policy act together you're going to hear more Merkels and Orbans either expressing or manifesting the concerns I just mentioned. Perhaps, you're right - countries like Hungary are ill-suited for the EU and I'm sure many people in that country feel likewise - but bashing them as insular and backwards isn't going to make the problems in your countries disappear. Surely, there must be a more positive and constructive approach, but maybe I'm wrong about that, too.
     
  16. ArchStanton

    ArchStanton Well-Known Member

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  17. ArchStanton

    ArchStanton Well-Known Member

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    I've been to the Czech Republic (formerly Czechoslovakia), Poland, Romania, Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. And some real dumps like France, Italy and Germany.
     
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  18. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    You are all over the place here especially with your last comment. But then I suppose if you believe that the USSR was the result of a Jewish Bolshevik international plot then you would call it that. I see your continuing with your anti-Semitic dog whistles.

    The point remains. To suggest that Eastern Europeans would have been better off without the EU can only come from ideological fascism and extreme nationalism or someone who has no experience of the bone breaking poverty that pervaded in these countries after the end of communism. It is comfortable armchair politics with no concept of reality.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  19. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    The anti-semitic tropes and dog whistles are clear. It is clear where this comes from. Your posts elsewhere also prove it.

    Are you serious? The "Dark Ages" were caused by the decline and destruction of the Roman Empire by barbarian hordes. An Icelandic volcano - what kind of New Age crackpot theory is that?



    Bizarre again! Every Christian King in history who claimed his divine right was a theocrat. For centuries Church courts dispensed justice across Europe. Monasteries were centres of political power. The Pope had his own "Papal States". The history of Christendom is full of nations where Christian personal morality was made the basis of civil law. The last example of this was probably Ireland in the twentieth century where the Church practically dictated policy to the government.

    More utter garbage... you say that slavs (who are untermenschen to Nazis) and Magyars (mischlings to the Nazis, certainly with slav, turkic and Rroma (gypsy) blood mixed in) decided to ally themselves with racial supremacist Nazis because everyone else made them feel so bad about who they were? How many more absurd excuses have you got for racists, anti-semites and mass murderers?

    What makes you think that I was only criticising the Hungarian Catholic Church? The whole of the Central European Catholic Church was driven by anti-semitism and hostility to democracy. In Croatia the Ustase was driven by Catholics with clerical support for forced conversions and ethnic cleansing. The Church was a monstrous collaborator. Where it should have unambiguously disowned the Croations who participated in mass murder (not just one or two but tens of thousands) they equivocated and sat on the fence, trying to be neutral, arguing Jesuitically a distinction between de jure and de facto recognition of the ustase when mass automatic excommunication should have been the order of the day (as it later was in the case of IRA membership). Where there was a strong moral and historical obligation to stand up to the most evil ideologies in modern times, no matter what the consequences, the Church prevaricated. Of course there were brave exceptions like Stepinac. But the attraction of turning a blind eye to genocide if it faced down a mythical threat of "Bolshevism" was a price worth paying for many.

    Where did this come from? Obviously a feeble attempt at a personal attack based on my avatar. Ireland was neutral in WW2 and certainly not involved in any of these atrocities. Irish racism and anti-Semitism are a very different subject and in no way comparable to places where genocide and crimes against humanity are concerned (unless you want to go back to the seventeenth century). Such a comment can only be an attempt to minimize such atrocities and pass them off as something that "the Irish" did too. So we have the beginnings now of holocaust denial, i.e. minimising the impact of genocidal actions and arguing that there was nothing wholly exceptional here, no crimes crying out to heaven for vengeance, no moral degeneration of whole societies, no deeply held murderous prejudice against minority ethnic groups, Jews, Rroma or others. Just stuff that "held true for the Irish too". Filth and evil. Yes, this is now returning to Europe and America.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  20. Heroclitus

    Heroclitus Well-Known Member

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    Well I don't know. I hear Canadians tell me that their process of assimilation is better than the US's. They say that in America you are a Jewish American, or an Italian American, but in Canada it is the other way round (i.e. a Canadian Italian). For them this means that they are Canadian and preserve their cultural identity. To me it's not a fundamental difference. Assimilation, pluralism, multiculturalism...these are words which different ideologies attach different meanings to. What happened in the USA that every wave of immigrants was initially subject to hostility but then were accepted to the extent that then could lead the hostility against the next wave, to an extent also happened in Great Britain. If pluralism means becoming a contributing member of the host society whilst bringing along and to a great extent preserving your culture, to the extent that it enriches the culture of your host nation, then I am all for it. Immigrant societies like Canada, Australia, the USA and Great Britain, derive their strength and success from this kind of thing.

    Because you are listening to fascists. Or the new fascism which will be given another name by future historians (as it is not quite the same as its 1930's forbear).

    Not really. I have lived out of the UK now for more than a decade. When I left, Polish immigrants were new, poor at English and subject to xenophobia. Now Polish immigrants speak fluent English, see the UK as their home and are voting for Brexit (disgracefully, some of them). Now people talk about Romanians. They have always had a problem with the "latest" wave, as in America.

    The other problem is that you are listening to a US narrative. I remember traveling to Hamburg with a Chinese American lawyer who was a member of the Federalist Society (what an abomination of that cause that cabal is). He was utterly convinced that he was going to Germanistan, and that the place would resemble Afghanistan. There are a lot of lies or stories blown up out of proportion in the USA about Europe. Hamburg is of course a prosperous, genteel bourgeois city with an extremely high quality of life.

    There is always fear, that is what the second part of "xenophobe" means. The questions are as in America. Is such fear overblown (it usually is, towards crime, immigration etc. perception is always much worse than reality)? Is the demagogue highlighting these issues our of genuine concern or in order to gain power and implement an authoritarian worldview? In Orban's case he is a power hungry autocrat selling snake-oil to a gullible people. This also happens in America.

    Merkel showed great courage in declaring that Europe had a moral obligation to help refugees.

    Please stop the "maybe I'm wrong" stuff. The EU is at fault for its bureaucratic impotence. The problems are not different in Europe or Asia or America. They start with the people and in all these cases the choice people have to make between nationalism, isolationism and exceptionalism on the one hand, and liberal democracy, free market capitalism and cooperation between nation states. In all of history, everywhere, the past pulls people backwards into the former camp, and the future pulls forward into the latter. Sometimes the past wins. Sometimes it wins for centuries. But always in the end the future wins. That is what is happening in the world today. The personalities and leaders are a detail. The key thing is the hearts and minds of the people. To that end I would agree with you that some constructive approach is needed. And that the failure of liberals, the European Union and the global capitalist system has not been very constructive, to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  21. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Heroclitus - I find your projection of what I'm saying annoying so I'm putting you on ignore. Good bye!
     
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  22. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

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    Wrong, Mr. Moi621.
    Hungarian are of the Finno-Ugric group, which is a form of Scandinavian.
    And don't forget, Hungarians were part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire.

    God bless Mr. Orban. May God save Europe from Allah!
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  23. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    But they're Huns!

    Anyway I thought the Huns mingled with Germans - you know German slaves, but I guess I was wrong. Seems most Huns are descendants of the indigenous people, otherwise they wouldn't be speaking a Finnish/Ugric language.
     
  24. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Donor

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    I can't speak to the Canadian process of assimilation - ours is a rather informal, organic process that can take generations to complete - but I'm skeptical that theirs is better. I imagine that it might be easier given that Canada's population is a tenth of our own.

    That being said, I wouldn't read anything into the different structure you see in our terminology, especially if the Canadian version is influenced by the French that many of its citizens speak. If you're familiar with French you know that nouns and adjectives are arranged differently than they are in English. Regardless, when we talk about Italian Americans or African Americans it is understood that we are talking about Americans.

    The thing about pluralism - and I think this is a good thing - is that the expectations and obligations involving integration/assimilation don't fall solely on the immigrant. There are expectations and obligations that fall on society and government, too. This is why language matters. If the definitions and understandings of pluralism and multiculturalism aren't clear then no one knows what is expected of them. Here in America, it is understood that "pluralism" and "multiculturalism" mean two completely different things. In fact, the term "multiculturalism" is essentially considered a fancy "progressive" euphemism for Tribalism. In our understanding of "multiculturalism", or Tribalism, no expectations and obligations are placed on the immigrant, society and the government.

    When Angela Merkel speaks of the failure of "multiculturalism", I have to wonder if that is what she is talking about. On the other hand, the problems associated with that failure may be due to something else entirely, such as apathy, laziness, incompetence or all of the above. Logically speaking, her statement leads me to believe it is the former or a combination of both.

    Merkel's a fascist? Sorry, but I can't take that comment seriously.

    I hear the US narrative but that's not what I listen to. I listen to the narratives of Europe's leaders and a cross-section of the public and body politic (Left, Center and Right), including your own.

    So, what's the case with Merkel and her observation that multiculturalism has failed?

    For the most part I agree with you, but I'm not so certain that the picture and choices you present are so stark and Manichean. Certainly, nationalism, isolationism and exceptionalism can be destructive in their extremes, but as an Individualist of sorts I don't feel threatened by people's calls for more local sovereignty and autonomy and less centralized power, the preservation of and appreciation for their own nation, cultures and history (checkered as it may be) and their reservations towards interventionist policies abroad. The pull of History is strong, but I would like to think that is something we can learn from and we're not doomed to repeat its mistakes, but it's easy for a person who lives in a country that is only 243 years old to be so optimistic. We don't have the long, convoluted and torturous history that European countries have.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  25. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Okay they all relate to the Altaic language group that involved many
    peoples from Lapland across Siberia to Korea, some say Japan too.
    But, the Huns came to Europe from the East, not the north.
    Turkic, not Turkish.
    Although some Hungarian politicians call for closer relationship
    with their brother/cousin Turks & Turkey - self identifying themselves
    as less European, more Turkic.


    Moi's Theory - Way back there was a massive drought, possible the
    Younger Dryas period that killed off the European colonization of ancient
    North America. (Can't remember their name now)

    In Eurasia & N. Africa peoples migrated to the great river valleys such as Nile, Indus, etc
    or north to the polar areas.
    In the polar areas different peoples traded with one another and developed proto Altaic as a language of trade. Simple grammar. No gender, cases or that foo foo stuff of grammar.
    Similar to the evolution of English.

    <ta-da>

    Moi :oldman:



    Canada-3.png
     

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