I'm Not Giving Up The Watchmaker Argument , , , ,

It is amazing in all of these discussion the argument from ignorance comes up again and again - science does not have all of the answers -- therefore, God. A God discovered by bronze age goat herders.

 

Now there is a great example of a theist projecting the failings of Religious belief onto the dreaded "Atheism"

 

Again, that's what you say.
I do not believe you.

I do not believe your secularized "scientists" are unbiased
disinterested seekers of truth. I believe your secularized
"scientists" are strongly biased and strongly prejudiced
against God, against Intelligent Design, against the Bible,
against Christianity --- and I believe the "leaders" in the
so-called "scientific community" are practicing their Faith
Based Beliefs in their Religion Of Evolution and in some
cases you can add their Religion Of Atheism to the mix.

The Secular god named "False-god-Science" , , ,

We are in an Ideological War over these issues and War
means we have enemies. Enemies do not trust each
other. Enemies will tell lies and use deception in their
attempts to win the Ideological War. Your secularized
"scientists" have embraced the Secular god named
"False-god-Science" and they bow humbly on
their knees before him as they worship him and grovel
at his feet. There are over 5 billion Theists in the
world who do NOT bow down and worship the Secular
god names "False-god-Science" and who do believe in
Intelligent Design ---and there is nothing that you can say,
think, or do that is going to defeat Theism as it grows and
expands worldwide. Theism will hit 5.7 billion by 2050.

Ideological War Rule 1 Is To Weaponize Hypocrisy , , , ,

There are many Rules in Ideological War. One Rule is to
pretend there is not really an Ideological War raging so
those who worship "False-god-Science" can pretend to
be disinterested seekers of truth that will follow the
evidence anywhere it leads which gives them a base for
their false pretense to be "open-minded" to what they
call "evidence" -- all this allows them to pretend that
they are not really locked-down enemies of Christianity
and enemies of the God that created them, even though
it is clear that some of them clearly despise the God that
created them and look for opportunities to make their
hatred of Him clear to anyone that will listen to their HATE
filled rants. Here is one clear example of their HATE filled
mini-rants against the God of the Bible --- the God that
created them:

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant
character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust,
unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic
cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal,
genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal,
sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
___Richard Dawkins
https://www.gotquestions.org/God-of-the-Old-Testament.html

JAG Note: Dawkins' use of the word "fiction" does not
eliminate the reality that Dawkins and his fellow worshipers
of the "False-god-Science" do in fact wage an Ideological War
against the God of the Bible and against Christianity.

Richard Dawkins, One High Priest Of The Religion
Of Atheism, Has Many Disciples , , ,

Also there are large numbers of people who practice the
Religion Of Atheism and the Religion Of Evolution that
agree with what Richard Dawkins said up there and
they push forward that message on the Internet At
Large --- so there is indeed an Ideological War
raging in the World and on the Internet At Large
between people who worship "False-god-Science"
and people who do not worship "False-god-Science"
but rather love and serve the God that created them.

"What Dawkins Said Is True"___ Dawkins' Disciples

By the way, when that Dawkins quote is posted, usually
one of the people that consider themselves to be on your
side of this Ideological War, will post back and reaffirm
their commitment to believing the Dawkins quote is
true and at that point the ancient Problem Of Evil
will once again appear in threads. as they start accusing
the God of the Bible of being evil. You know what I mean.
They accuse The-God-That-Does-Not-Exist of being evil.
I have an OP and a thread on this very thing here:
http://www.politicalforum.com/index...elebrate-all-the-good-that-god-causes.572969/

Christianity Gradually Defeats All Its Enemies , , , ,

You may, or may not, pretend that there is no Ideological
War raging between the Religion Of Theism and the
Religion Of Evolution-Religion Of Atheism but it is
clear that there is an Ideological War raging and in
my view this Ideological War will continue to rage for
millenniums until Christendom finally Christianizes the
entire world. "He must reign until He has put all His
enemies under His feet" 1 Corinthians 15:25 This
mean that the Religion Of Evolution and the Religion
Of Atheism is going to eventually lose this now-raging
Ideological War. "Go and make disciples of all nations"
said the Lord Jesus and His Christian Church will in
fact do exactly that, as the millenniums roll forward.
Nothing can stop it.

The New Atheists Are Waging Ideological War , , ,

Here is some more solid evidence that demonstrates that
there is indeed an Ideological War raging between the
Religion Of Theism and the secular Religion Of Atheism\
and one of its gods named "False-god-Science."

Start quote.
"New Atheism is a term coined by the journalist Gary Wolf
in 2006 to describe the positions promoted by some atheists
of the twenty-first century.

This modern-day atheism is advanced by a group of thinkers
and writers who advocate the view that superstition, religion
and irrationalism should not simply be tolerated but should
be countered, criticized, and exposed by rational argument
wherever their influence arises in government, education,
and politics.

According to Richard Ostling, Bertrand Russell, in his 1927
essay Why I Am Not a Christian, made recommendations
similar to those proposed by the New Atheists, suggesting
that there are no substantive differences between traditional
atheism and New Atheism.'___Wiki
End quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

___________

The Faith-Based Religious claim that , , , ,

~ unthinking non-intelligent Evolution
~ unthinking non-intelligent Selection
~ unthinking non-intelligent Time , , ,
~ unthinking non-intelligent Chance , , ,
~ unthinking non-intelligent Matter , , ,

, , , has produced the , , ,

~ Highly complex Planets that can support life
~ Highly complex Human Body
~ Highly complex Solar System
~ Highly complex Universe
~ Highly complex Earth
~ Highly Complex Human Brain
~ Highly Complex Human Eye

, , , and in principle, by extension, the Highly Complex "Working Rolex Watch" , , ,

, , , is an absurd Faith Based Belief Of the Religion Of Evolution.

JAG


``

 

You're assuming I don't know "this stuff".

 

Ideological War Rule 1 Is To Weaponize Hypocrisy , , , ,

Rule 1 Of Ideological War is to seek to discredit your enemies.

Rule 2 is to hypocritically pretend that you do not actually have
any Ideological Enemies so you can pretend to be objectively
unbiased.

Rule 3 is to keep repeating Rule 1 and keep pretending Rule 2

JAG


``

 

What you know, or do not know, is not important when waging
Ideological War --- what is important is waging the war and making
converts and my Ideological Tribe is going to win this Ideological
War and defeat your secular tribe as the millenniums roll forward,
and for many reasons and one reason, among many, is this , ,

Human beings are not characteristically attracted to your secular
tribe's message of Gloom and Doom for the ultimate destiny of the
Human Person and they are "turned off" by being told they have
the same identical ultimate end-destiny as do Rats and Mice,
which is ceasing-to-exist as in Oblivion. But you be sure you keep
on hawking your message on the Internet -- your hawking your
discouraging depressing message of Ultimate despair and Ultimate
defeat for the Human Person at Death is helping my side win.

By the way, here are 2 thoughts for you and these thoughts are
really "priceless" , , ,

{1} I expect Got Questions has millions of hits every day on the
Worldwide Web. You, in contrast, are merely one lonely digital ink
"voice' silently pecking out short little messages in threads destined
to be soon buried forever in the Digital Archives in the bowels of the
Internet -- where ALL that you "pecked out" will be forgotten forever
as if you never even existed --- yet Got Questions will grow and
expand and be an ever on-going HUGE influence worldwide
in support of the Truth of Evangelical Christianity.

{2} Your Religion Of Atheism Has Ultimate Defeat {Death} As Its Core Message
At Death You Cease To Exist And Your Living Voice Will Never Again Be Heard.
There will come a time when you never again will be able to say "we atheists"
because you will be forever removed from the battlefield where this Ideological
War is raging.
The only possible way for YOU to win , , , YOU as an individual , , , is to have
a Plan that actually defeats Death. You don't have one. Death will eliminate you
from the battlefield and from the War. Yet you love the War and you love to
participate in the war. How do I know? Because you have been here since
August 2015 pecking away and enjoying your personal participation in all
that is "going on." But this is going to END. Death will defeat you and defeat
you permanently. How does that make you feel? But your ideological enemies
will NOT be defeated by Death. The Lord Jesus said of His sheep, "I give
them Eternal Life and they shall never perish."
You're on the Losing Side. You will be permanently defeated by Death
and your voice forever silenced.

JAG

 

You claim to be a scientist;what is your field of expertise?

So, You Don't Believe In Noah's Ark? Guess Again!
Post #162
I am Christian and a scientist.. and I do believe in interspecies evolution.
Post by: ToddWB, May 27, 2020 in forum: Religion & Philosophy

 

Explains why you pretend that evolution is a religion, you pretend that the majority of Christians do not believe in evolution and you pretend that atheism is a religion. You are well aware each of those are untrue.

No for you rule two is to ignore anyone or anything you do not understand and call it gobbledygook! Then you accuse others of hate when the only hate shown comes from you when challenged on your falsehoods

Yes we can see in forum after forum, thread after thread and post after post, how you repeat your falsehoods over and over again.

 

To quote Ron Reagan Jr:
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell.”

 

Spot-on!

 

"if abiogenesis happened"___Distraff
Clear "iffy" language and not to be trusted

"the first life was extremely simple"__Distraff
You cannot prove that to be a fact.
Its a Faith Based statement

You can put any kind of Spin on it you can think up.
The fact remains solid, clear, and bold that you cannot
prove that life can come from non-life and any claims
that life came from non-life or that life can come from
non-life are Faith Based Religious claims. This is just
one more reason to justify me speaking about the
Religious Beliefs of the Religion Of Evolution.

I have more confidence in this , , ,

"The overwhelming evidence that life cannot come from
non-life is a powerful indication that naturalism is not a
realistic worldview."__from the linked article
https://www.gotquestions.org/abiogenesis-definition-theory.html

, , , than I do in what you post.

_________


And the Faith Based claim that says , , , ,

~ unthinking non-intelligent Evolution
~ unthinking non-intelligent Selection
~ unthinking non-intelligent Time , , ,
~ unthinking non-intelligent Chance , , ,
~ unthinking non-intelligent Matter , , ,

, , , has produced the , , ,

~ Highly complex Planets that can support life
~ Highly complex Human Body
~ Highly complex Solar System
~ Highly complex Universe
~ Highly complex Earth
~ Highly Complex Human Brain
~ Highly Complex Human Eye

, , , and in principle, by extension, the Highly Complex "Working Rolex Watch" , , ,

, , , is an absurd Faith Based Belief Of the Religion Of Evolution.

JAG

 

I am so glad you quoted my post when you posted your
Ron Reagan Jr. quote.
Even the people on your side of this Ideological War can see at a glance
the quality of my post that you quoted, and at the same moment see, at a
glance, the poor quality of your response -- which not only was very poor
quality --- but also was no refutation of the Truths in my posts that you
quoted. Death will defeat you. Death will stop your participation forever.
Death will eliminate you. On your Atheism, Death is your personal Defeater.
You lose. Forever and ever. Defeated. Beaten. Whipped,

You then post "Spot on" under your own post. What? You are your own
cheerleader?

JAG

``

 

This is one of the funniest bit of quote mining I have ever seen. Using the word if does not mean you cannot trust it, quite the opposite it means you do not know for a fact that something happened.

No it is not a faith based statement and he is not trying to prove it to be fact, it is as you wrote an "iffy" statement as you put it, it really is a skill to contradict yourself whilst quoting one sentence!

if abiogenesis happened the first life was extremely simple

The above is a fact, if you understand abiogenesis and english!

 

Maybe Todd meant he was a scientist in the sense of the bolded red part of the
definition of "scientist"?

scientist - "a person who is studying or has expert knowledge of one or more of the natural or physical sciences."

JAG


``

 

Maybe the ignore function is not quite so good as you think, it clearly confused you!

 

@Swensson (because I wrote it for you too}

I pray , , , seriously , , , I pray , , that you will remain
an agnostic, not only on the "cause of the universe", but
also , , , and here is where I pray extra hard , , , that
you will either remain or become an agnostic on the
issue of the existence of God, with a view to you one
day coming to Faith in the Lord Jesus as your Savior.
You have read my posts. Do I strike you as a fool?

Maybe I know something that you don't know? I can
tell you for absolute certain that I do know something
that you do not know -- and can not know --- in your
present spiritual condition you can not understand
spiritual truths. You must have supernatural help in
order to understand spiritual truths. How to get that
help? You have merely to sincerely ask God for it.
That's it. That's step one. If you take step one, then
God will be there for you to help you take Step two.
Coming to Faith in God is a very simple process.

{1} Step one is to sincerely ask God to help you believe.
"I do believe, help me overcome my unbelief." said one
seeker of God in the New Testament Mark 9:24

{2} Step two is to be supernaturally regenerated - what
the Lord Jesus called being "born again" in John chapter 3.
"You must be born again."__Jesus in John 3:3

{3} Step three is to sincerely pray the "sinner's prayer" which
is , , ,
"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the
dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart
and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior.
In Your Name. Amen.."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinner's_prayer#Billy_Graham

After Steps {1} -- {3} then comes the "legal application'
of the Death Of Christ to your soul -- which is Christianity's
great doctrine of Justification By Faith. Read Romans chapters
4 and 5. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with
God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

Note: many people experience Steps {1}. {2}. and {3} all at
one time simultaneously.

You now have Eternal Life as per John 3:16 and John 10:28
Jesus regarding His sheep: "I give them Eternal Life and they
shall never perish." John 10:28
________
"What shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world and lose
his own soul."__The Lord Jesus So there is a soul to be saved
or to be lost.
_________
That up there is 10,000 times more valuable to you, than us
rumbling on about Evolution -- which, true or false, is never
going to do a single thing to help your soul -- or to "be there
for you" when your certain-coming 'hour of need" comes upon
you -- that is, your Death Bed.

JAG

``

 

JAG Wrote:
"You do not and can not KNOW that the planets that support life were
the results of the "enough times" principle at work.
Your "enough times" is guesswork and speculation regarding what
actually caused the fine-tuned."__JAG

Distraff Replied:

Maybe on planets supporting life you can know with high
probability, but you cannot know with high probability that
the following did not have an Intelligent Designer , ,

~ Highly complex Planets that can support life
~ Highly complex Human Body
~ Highly complex Solar System
~ Highly complex Universe
~ Highly complex Earth
~ Highly Complex Human Brain
~ Highly Complex Human Eye

And it makes far more sense to believe that they did have an
Intelligent Designer who had an Intelligent Plan and an Intelligent
Goal for His Human Race Project.

JAG

``

 

If anyone doubts that this poster is here merely to preach this post proves it!

 

I already explained how with high probability at least one planet is bound to support life out of trillions of trillions, just like we are bound to roll 1000 heads in a roll eventually, and we keep finding good candidates all the time even in our own small pocket of space. We can't be sure until we do find it, but I can say that high probability.

Explained with evolution as explained before with high probability.

Explained by planetary formation that we can see with telescopes.

Possibly explained by the multi-verse just like you try to speculate it with a creator.

Explained by planetary formation and enough times principle with high probability.

Explained by evolution with high probability.

But we have reasonable good natural explanations with evidence. Now you explain how this exists:

~ Highly complex/advanced all-knowing, all-power disembodied creator.

The only reasonable explanation is design right?

 

I am an agnostic on the existence on some kind of creator. But I am firmly atheist on the Christian God and know with high probability that he doesn't exist. For example, it is makes no logical sense to torture people for eternity because they have the wrong religion.

I have done that in the past and I have gotten nothing. What Christians I have talked to will do will interpret random feelings or lucky events as "messages" from God even though its just them trying hard to believe. This is the logic of a person with schizophrenia. Why doesn't God just communicate with them directly man-to-man like a father would?

 

The universe is very complex
The universe has a designer.
The designer must be very complex.
The designer must have a designer!

And on and on ...........................................................................................................

 

If abiogenesis happened then the first life would be extremely simple. This statement is clearly true by your own reasoning. You have shown that it is clearly impossible for a complex being to be formed by abiogenesis. So abiogenesis could have only formed something simple. You need to get over your aversion of IF statements. They are very integral to logic and even computer programming.

Additionally, we know that modern bacteria have gone through 3.5 billion years of evolution. Every single organism has 100 mutations with natural selection working on them so it is impossible for modern life to be the same and just as advanced as life 3.5 billion years ago. Therefore, the first bacteria was far simpler than modern highly evolved bacteria. We know this with high probability not with proof because we know evolution is true. Your article is only looking at the odds of a modern bacteria came from non-life. But nobody is claiming a modern bacteria was created with abiogenesis. Nobody.

I'm not claiming life came from non-life. So far scientists have a lot of interesting hypotheses but they don't have enough evidence yet.

Its one thing to say that we lack evidence life came from non-life. Its another thing to claim its impossible. I have refuted the "evidence" in this article already.

There is no mechanism to evolve a rolex watch naturally but there is a mechanism for evolving life. Also, we have seen humans create rolex watches, while we have never seen God create life.

 

So in the beginning there was non-life. Nothing but rocks
and sticks and other dead stuff and some soup.

Then non-life came alive. Abiogenesis. Life came from non-life.

But after that the life was "a single celled" life.
That'd be very very small.

And this "single-celled" life was the ancestor of all of us.

Wonder what it looked like after it had existed for say
10,000,000 years. It did reproduce of course.

This "single-celled" life form had to reproduce itself.
Or was it a He or maybe a She?
Probably just an "it" there at the beginning.

At first it was just a blob, right?
It started off as "a single-celled" life.
A really really very very tiny blob.

At some point the blob came to be the size of say a dime?

Then the blob grew bigger as the millenniums rolled on?

Then one day the blob became the size of say a golf ball?

Then as time passed the blob grew some legs?

And then it crawled up out of the soup?
Or crawled up out of a swamp?

At some point it had to have some kind of legs, right?

Wonder what it looked like when it was say 500,000,000
years old?

Was there some point when it looked like a Toad Frog?
Or maybe a Lizard?
A Lizard that could walk up-right?
At least for a few yards?
Maybe not a Lizard?
Maybe something else?
Maybe at some point it looked just a little bit like a Turtle that
could take few steps?

Maybe a Turtle with no shell? But little tiny legs?

Time moved on and , , ,

At some point the "single-celled" common ancestor
became a dude.

Its fair to call him a dude, because at some point he looked
like a monkey-man, right?

And it would have been immoral to kill this monkey-man in order to
steal his food, right?
Yes immoral to do that.
So he became a dude.
A dude with rights.
I mean your Secular Moral Code would say it was immoral to kill this
monkey-man in order to steal his food. Yes sure your code would say
that.
So we are dealing with a dude here, a dude with rights. A dude that
at some point looked very much like an Ape.

But much earlier he was just a blob that evolved into a Monkey-man.

And this monkey-man originally came from matter that was 100% dead.
Abiogenesis.
He started out as "a single-celled" entity.

But ended up a dude that looked a lot like a monkey.

Then later on this monkey-man began to look more and more
like a Chimp.

And then finally as billions of years rolled along this Chimp's descendants
came to look like say Former President George W. Bush, right?

__________

You can easily believe that up there, or some version of that up there,
but you just can not believe in an Intelligent Designer 'cause it just takes
to much Faith to believe in an Intelligent Designer, right?

But you can and do believe that dead stuff became alive and at some
point grew legs and then at some point crawled up out of the swamp,
and then at some point began to look like a Chimp and then at some
point began to look like George W. Bush.

JAG

``

 

Some scientists are atheist, others are Christian, others have other religions. There is a lot of diversity in the scientific community and they are good intelligent people who know their stuff. This is true not only in the field of evolution, but biology, chemistry, astronomy, medicine, health, etc. You shouldn't have faith in scientists or hold a scientific theory as a religion. You should respect the qualifications of scientists and at least honestly listen to what they have to say and consider their evidence. Scientists aren't evil. They are just members of the community who take their kids to school every day just like you and me.

Scientists believe in the scientific method for making discoveries about the natural world. This method has produced the amazing healthcare and technology you and I use every day. This is because this method relies very heavily on evidence and testing. Its not a perfect method and I myself because flawed humans evolved but it is much better than blind faith and mythology. Also, most scientists are theists themselves. They aren't authorities on religion because science is their specialty, but they aren't God-haters like you want to portray them.

I mostly see hate with the most radical religious fundamentalists and atheists who tend to be over-represented on internet forums. This is because these people are unstable themselves. Most atheists and religious people I know are very tolerant to other world views and actually don't have much of an interest in debate at all and would rather just live their lives.

Richard Dawkins is definitely one of those radicals and is a rude arrogant person. But he is right that the God of the bible is an unpleasant person because he was made up by people in a harsh warlike time.

Dawkins was big around 2006, but he has faded since then and has lost most of his fame. He has even gotten into trouble with some of the more left-wing feminist atheists. At this point, the atheists really don't have any leader they look up to.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=/m/06g4_

Christianity is fading in the west and is only strong in poverty stricken places like Latin America, Africa, and Eastern Europe. When a society becomes advanced rates of religiosity fall. However, since poor places have more kids, the rate of Christianity will hold constant in the near future even as it moves out of the west. The religion that is winning is Islam and they have a lot more kids.

To be honest, there aren't that many atheists activitists and the vast majority of the 1-2% of atheists in America aren't activists at all.