In the how come dept

The number and amount of crime committed by illegals is dwarfed in it's magnitude by that committed by natural born citizens of the USA.

 

EXCEPT those crimes committed by criminal invaders should never happen, because they have no legal reason to be here.

 

I care. Please share.

 

I’ll let you share first.

 

Guns aren't dangerous?

 

Uh, no. Who I am is not important. If it helps you to think I've never touched a gun, then there you go. Is your entire argument simply based on anecdotes?

 

Pretty much.

 

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=980980

 

You keep acting like this is a moral argument. Do you think this same line of reasoning was valid before the 13th amendment?

 

"Liberals" don't want border control?

That is a false statement.

 

Certainly not but yours apparently has no foundation at all.

14.5 million Americans have concealed carry permits. That isn’t counting the 11 states with constitutional carry.

Close to 1% of Americans actually defend themselves with a firearm annually.

There are about 13 million firearm hunters in the US.

There are over 170,000 trappers. That’s 25% of the number of sworn law enforcement officers.

You mentioned ranchers. The number of ranches outnumber law enforcement officers by about 50,000. A good percentage would have more than one owner/employee using a firearm. This does not account for usage of firearms in hog operations, etc.

Every gun owning American who believes in the Constitution and freedom is exempt from your claim their firearms are toys. I don’t have stats on that but it surely dwarfs all the previous examples showing firearms are much more than toys or props for all but a small percentage.

What is your definition of small percentage? Do you base Asian American’s rights by the small 6 ish %? Or transgender’s rights by their 0.6%?

What kind of gun did you touch?

 

Well, I’ve had people and animals attack me. Never a firearm. Is alcohol dangerous?

 

Wait, are you saying "guns don't kill people, people do"?

Animals can be dangerous, that's true. But would you rather have your children play with a puppy or a gun?

Is alcohol dangerous? Yes, of course.

 

Well 99.9% of the time that’s how it works.

Children play with toy guns all the time. And puppies. But it isn’t good to let them play with 2000 lb bulls or loaded Glocks. Parents are supposed to be intelligent enough to figure this stuff out...

Really? So why aren’t these threads full of clowns advocating for reinstatement of the 18th Amendment?

 

So, that 1% is complete nonsense.

Hunting and trapping(also doesn't need a gun) are hobbies. In pretty much every country you can get a gun for hunting.
Ranchers don't need guns either, though they can be handy. Don't need firearms to butcher hogs.

The real statistics are closer to less than 300 per year. So, about 1 person per million. Over 100 years, that's 100 per million, or maybe .001% if we are being very very generous. That being said, I'd bet many of those could be avoided by not engaging in the first place.

All that being said, a gunowner isn't a protected class anymore than a skier is a protected class.

So, if you really want anecdotes, I know at least 100 people that are into guns, probably at least 20 that are nuts about them. The ones that claim to have used them in any capacity are also massive liars about everything else too(which, of course sort of goes hand in hand with the reason they are so into them in the first place). Nobody else has ever come close. So lets just call it 30 people who have been into guns their whole lives with 0 gun use(except for a couple that used them to murder someone in cold blood). So essentially, you can expect to go 1,000 years without finding a legitimate use for a gun.

Unless.. you have dirty harry cosplay fantasies which I think is really what we are talking about here, and fits with my anecdotal experience with people who care about this.

On the other hand, immigrants are just people who are a little less dangerous than the average American.

 

Why shouldn't children play with loaded glocks?

Should there be alcohol control? I think most people support strict laws regarding alcohol. You don't?

 

Untrue.

Hunting and trapping are not hobbies to many. Again you are speaking from ignorance. Done a lot of ranching too, huh? You should probably have just admitted you know little about firearm usage and left it at that.

And where did I mention butchering hogs? Oh that’s right I didn’t. You made that up to fit your narrative. Swine operations use firearms regularly but you wouldn’t know that because you’re as familiar with them as ranching....

Only in your mind...even the anti gun CDC puts the number around 500,000. More uninformed opinion.

Hmmmm. No words.

Dang, you know two cold blooded murderers? Based on this paragraph you need to associate with some different kinds of people. That certainly isn’t a broad demographic. You hang out on the streets of Chicago late nights?

Yep, you need new friends. That’s what your anecdotal evidence amounts to.

Well, concealed carry permit holders are way less dangerous than the average American so there is that...

Yes, crime should be ignored if committed by a demographic slightly less prone to crime than average. Got it.

Good stuff!

 

So, here's where I'll agree, the average permit holder is less dangerous than the average American. I believe that. Again, not a protected class, just a person with a hobby.

Now, you're right that the best way to slaughter or put down is generally with a gun. Never seen any other real need for a gun. Maybe the occasional rattler, or varmint. But a bolt gun works fine, and there are other options. You are actually right that I don't know anything about hogs, but other than slaughter I can't imagine what you would use it for.

In any event, as I said, even in countries in which guns are essentially outlawed, you can still get guns for hunting or ranching.

the 500,000 number and pretty much everyone trying to make the argument that guns are useful for self defense comes from this paper:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...context=jclc&usg=AOvVaw3znRm0HJ8YzcV7rPEhZgku
Now, his data is included, can you tell me how he came to that number?

 

I'm not a liberal, but I'll give it a shot... It's the idea that "people are good". Therefore, illegal aliens are also good. Anytime someone does something bad, the liberals have to point at something else to blame for the bad thing, because to point at the person who did the bad thing as bad would run counter to their world view. So if someone kills a bunch of people with a gun, it must the be the gun's fault. If someone kills a bunch of people with a truck, it must be something faulty in the person's background, or poverty, or institutional racism, or the patriarchy, or some other external factor, and not that the person himself is bad.

So how does this square with the liberals' tendency to blame white males for all the evils of the world? Easy, that relates back to their belief that everyone is equal. If people aren't equal in their outcomes, it can't be that people are different in their abilities, it must be due to some aspect of repression, that the people who are successful are keeping everyone else down. And who are the successful people in America? White males. The fact that black and Hispanic males and white females can't compete on an equal basis with white males must be the white males' fault. So how to fix it? Tear down white males and all their institutions keeping everyone else down. It won't, of course, you can't raise someone else up by knocking someone else down, but you can't convince liberals of that.

 

I want to point out that you keep trying to make this about me. I should point out that even if I was born in new york, inherited hundreds of millions from from my parents, never went outside, and never did anything but sit in my room watching tv and rage tweeting, it wouldn't change facts.

That's what's called an ad hominem. That's a problem, not because it's mean or anything, but because reality is reality no matter who is telling you about it. It's tempting to just find a flaw in a person then you can ignore what they are saying. So, in short stick to the facts.

 

Because they are immature.

What strict laws? The ones that make alcohol related crime, abuse, suicide, poverty, cirrhosis of the liver, and accidents rare anomalies?

 

The gun shootings have been done by American citizens, not immigrants seeking asylum. Big difference. And most of these perps have been white and not Muslim either.

 

“Protected class” is interesting terminology. Not sure what you mean by that. But the American citizen’s right to bear arms is certainly protected by the 2A. Like I said before, exercising that right is not a hobby. Unless freedom is just a game to you.

Now you are starting to remind me of another PF member who advised me to protect my crops from deer predation by planting marigolds.

I’m not keen to carry a bolt gun around in situations where a handgun is more practical. And there are situations where bolt guns are quite impractical compared to a semi auto rifle. Your argument is like saying because computer monitors can be harmful to the human eye programmers shouldn’t have them. A keyboard is all that is really necessary.

So firearms should only be for those who you believe “need” them? Do you feel that way about automobiles, six packs of beer, and golf? All of which take precious human life.

The 500,000 number does not come from that paper. The 500,000 number comes from where I said it did. A study commissioned by the CDC.

Kleck used surveys and came up with numbers in the 2-3 million range. But I suppose all his respondents were liars like your acquaintances. And me I suppose because I have had one experience where presence of a firearm stopped aggression.

 

Yes, I’ve been encouraging you to be factual from the beginning. But you clearly don’t know all the facts. Nor do I. But I certainly know the facts I live daily. A New York millionaire sitting in a room his whole life can not know some things I know. And vice versa. You keep posting misinformation. I don’t know who else to blame for that.

My apologies for making it about you. I just like to know something of a person’s mindset and why they believe what they do. My views on illegal immigration and firearms are rooted in actual where the rubber meets the road realities because I live the realities on both issues. It’s easier for me to relate to someone I’m discussing with if I know something of their experience.

 

But loaded glocks aren't dangerous (according to you).

So might as well have no laws or rules regarding anything because laws aren't perfect. Makes sense.